I think that the fundamental disagreement here is that I can’t see pot smoking as an expression of either freedom or of basic civil liberties. I don’t buy that argument for cigarette smokers, and I don’t buy that argument for pot smokers.
I don’t think that would work. I drew a comparison between smoking pot and bug segregation to point out that even mundane things can be representative of repressed human freedom. Pot smoking and segregation are of course very very far apart, but they sit on the same scale.
You don’t think it’s a basic human right to do what you want, provided it doesn’t harm anyone else? What other activities that don’t concern you do you favor banning?
Right, and during prohibition there were people put in jail because they ran stills, made homebrew etc. If you were alive then you would have been railing against their incarceration as well. The difference is that, unlike pot, nearly everyone liked alcohol and made the laws get repealed. Today, there are not enough organized pot advocates to make that difference. Until that number changes you’re shit outta luck.
Why must this be said over and over? Because we want people to follow the laws, and yes, even the bad laws. Those get changed/repealed if enough people want it. End of story.
Bit of both.
Since many minorities often get/feel short changed on opportunities to legally succeed in society, a disproportionate number of them try to succeed via “shortcuts” that are illegal (dealing, gang activity, etc.).
Law enforcement tends to concentrate on that type of crime rather than “corporate” crimes (tax evasion, insider trading, etc) more likely committed by the majorities in power.
This will certainly lead to disproportionate incarceration.
Don’t bother, I tried saying the same thing but it just bounced off.
And how long can it take for large numbers of pot advocates to get organized?
By this thinking, if my wife and I were to throw a blanket on our front lawn and start having hot monkey sex, it would be OK. We’re not harming anyone, after all.
Society does need to enact penalties for certain “harmless pleasures”. I’m not going to say pot, or having sex with your wife on your front lawn, are things that need to be forbidden, but the people to whom our democratic republic have ceded the power to make these decisions think differently.
Little Nemo, I don’t see anyone here saying the prison is the problem. I see complaints that the laws which send so many into the prisons are part of the problem. I would add that the way the laws are not evenly applied are yet another part of the problem.
Who knows? Maybe a few years…maybe never. Who would have though in, say, the 50’s (or even the 80’s) that gay rights/marriage would become a main stream issue? Civil rights laws are another good case in point…think about how people in the 30’s would have felt about some of the far reaching laws in, say, the 60’s. What would have been fringe then became mainstream later. Then again, if the majority of American’s don’t feel pot smoking is important enough to re-evaluate the laws it might remain a fringe issue forever.
TODAY it is illegal…so, if you do it and are stupid enough to get caught doing it you have to take responsibility for your own actions. I have a friend who firmly believes that he shouldn’t have to pay federal income tax. He is convinced that the Government shouldn’t legally be able to require him to pay…and so a few years ago (convinced by one of those weird ass fringe web sites) he decided he wasn’t going to pay anymore. Guess what happened to him? He is out of jail these days but he is STILL paying for his own actions and will continue to do so for a while yet.
What is or is not a ‘stupid law’ is in the eyes of the beholder. If it IS a stupid law, and you can convince enough citizens that this is the case, then it will become a mainstream issue…and eventually it will probably be changed, modified or gotten rid of. Or maybe not. In the mean time however it IS the law…so, break it at your own risk.
-XT
You know, I think pot should be legalized. You know, I think the marijuana laws are bad. I don’t smoke pot, never have, don’t care to. I really don’t have a dog in the fight, but I’d like to see this changed.
However, I can’t fucking stand it when people compare anti-marijuana laws to slavery or the civil rights movement. These types of arguments make me want to have even thinking about marijuana be a summary capital offense. Do not belittle the horrors of slavery and the evils of Jim Crow by comparing it to your precious weed. There is no comparison and you just look like a jackass.
One is clearly a whole lot fucking worse than the other, but to say there is “no comparison” is seriously exaggerating your emotional appeal. Slavery and pot smoking both contain within the element of the basic human right to be left the hell alone if you’re not hurting anyone. Both are on a continuum, and yes, slavery is way way way the hell up there and pot smoking is way down. It’s the difference between stealing a candy bar and stealing hundreds of millions of dollars of employees’ pensions. I’m not going to get all worked up over someone stealing a candy bar, but I’m not going to pretend it’s not wrong, either.
Obviously it’s taking longer than it took for the alcohol prohibition laws to be rescinded. This speaks volumes as to what the majority care about.
Alcohol also had the advantage of being legal and consumed in large quantities before prohibition, so people knew what they were missing. The vast majority of people who are in favor of marijuana prohibition are completely ignorant of its effects.
I would think the very nature of the habit in question would preclude a great deal of motivation and organization… :rolleyes:
Yeah. I was really just going for a little lame drug humor.
I also can’t see any reason for it to be illegal, aside from the fact that it would be difficult to make money off of it, so it would be difficult to get tax revenues out of it. Not too compelling, but that’s how the game is played.
Most of the drugs currently illegal were legal and widely used before prohibition as well. You could buy opium based products over the counter at one point…and they were VERY widely in use. Cocaine was used widely as well…and yeah, MJ was legal.
-XT
Well, the idea here is that you were probably “harming” the neighbors who had to put up with the sight. Its effects weren’t limited to the consenting participants.
Supposing we criminalized having hot monkey sex on Sundays, even in the comfort of your own home. After all, there’s no human need to have sex on Sunday, of all days; if you were stupid enough to know the law, disobey it, and get caught, would you deserve whatever you got?
I have sympathy for those who are thrown in jail as a result of laws I find offensive; this is, after all, tandem to my finding those laws offensive.
Ok, there is a comparison. But it’s more like comparing an plant to a human corpse.
I don’t give a good goddam about the legality of marijuana. I think arguing about it distracts from the Pew report’s main point, which is that nonviolent crimes can be dealt with more effectively – and, not incidentally, more cheaply – by alternative penalties other than sending nonviolent offenders to prison or jail. Community-based corrections, for example.
You don’t have to de-criminalize pot in order to stop sending people to prison for having it.
The problem is that measures that would ultimately reduce the prison and jail populace and save money in the long run, cost money up front. Drug courts, diversion programs, mental health services, increased substance abuse services . . . all that stuff costs money, and none of it plays to constituents as “hard on crime.” The question therefore becomes whether we as a society want to reduce the instance of crime (recidivism) or whether we only want to look like that’s the goal.
The Pew report makes this point a hell of a lot better that you all are doing, frankly.
For those who want to read the actual report, you can find the PDF here —> http://stage.pewcenteronthestates.org/uploadedFiles/One%20in%20100.pdf
The report does not address as to why people are in prison or in jail. In looking at the Bureau of Justice Prison Statistics, the 2004 data shows:
[ul]
[li] 52 percent are in prison for violent crime (up from 47% in 1995)[/li][li] 21 percent are in prison for property crime (down from 23% in 1995)[/li][li] 20 percent are in prison for drug crimes (down from 22% in 1995)[/li][li] 7 percent are in prison for public-order crimes (down from 9% in 1995)[/li][/ul]
I want to see the Pew Report combined with BJS statistics to find out why people are in prison and not just total numbers in prison. Just using the above numbers, America is becoming more violent, while drug crimes have gone down.