Are people really under the impression that this T-shirt was made by white people for the sole denigration of blacks? Perhaps I’m also in denial, but I think that’s very unlikely.
My guess is that it was the brainchild of a few black women who wanted to rank on their male counterparts. They saw this list on the internet and decided to Africize it. They spent no real time tailoring it to the culture because obviously not a lot of thought went into it at all. It ended up in the hands of the bank somehow, and they were just looking for a venue to dump the shirts (which they’d paid for) on whomever they could. The decision to do so was probably made by someone who had a million more important things to do that day.
I’m not saying that some people won’t find it offensive, but I wouldn’t chalk it up to any act of malice.
Of course, I could be wrong, but my guess is as valid as anyone else’s. It might be useful to know who was behind the making and distributing of it. Otherwise it’s all stabs in the dark.
akennett: *“All monstro is saying is that just because you personally might happen not to be seriously offended by a racist 'Why is Better than a [Your Ethnic Group] Man” T-shirt doesn’t give you the right to say that she shouldn’t be offended by this one."
Actually Kimstu what she says to those people is “fuck you.”*
Yes, because you are presuming to tell her that she shouldn’t be offended by jokes making fun of her racial group. You don’t have the right to tell other people what racist slurs they are or are not allowed to be offended by.
Furthermore, if you can’t see a difference between someone being injured and someone crying about some percieved slight, then there really is no hope for you at all.
You don’t have any more right to tell other people what racist slurs they are or are not allowed to be offended by than to tell them what kind of physical injury they are or are not allowed to find painful. Telling people to “grow up” or “get over it” in either circumstance just makes you look, as I said, like an unsympathetic egotistical jerk.
Hey, gex gex, Bite me. I have said not one word about “white boy pain” in this thread. In fact, if you read the thread I linked to from jast year, it’s specifically about white on black predjudice. Making things up will not help your position.
So your solution to the problem of “traditionally marginalized groups” is to trat them differently than everyone else and thus continue to marginalize them? Congratulations, you’re a racist. Somehow, I doubt that you’re helping the problem much.
Wow dude, that is a pretty wild leap. Honestly, I do not think that I have proposed a solution at all, nor do I think that I deserve the kind of bile that you are directing my way. People that are way smarter than I have been trying to solve racism for a very long time, and so my contribution is on a personal level.
Specifically, as a white male, my contribution is going to mainly to try to listen and to not assume that my opinion on racism is worth jack shit (just as my opinion on the nuances of vision in the ultra-violet spectrum is also not worth much). The experience of racism is one which, at best, I have had impersonal contact.
What I am saying is that my belief is that what is offensive can best be viewed on a spectrum, rather than something that is either on one side of the line or the other. I respect that you disagree with me, although your opinion is rapidly loosing value with me, as you seem unable to disagree in a coherent way, and also seem prone to unfounded leaps of deduction and name calling. I now await your apology.
Apology for what? You said "jabs that target traditionally marginalized groups are inherently more harmful (and thus more offensive) " Now, this pretty clearly says that people should be treated differently based on what group they belong to. That’s racism. If I’m reading this wrong, please tell me and I will apologise.
I am a white male too, and I refuse to countenance racism in any form whatsoever, weather it’s some yahoo, nudging me talking about 'them" or being told I wasn’t welcome at a party because I’m white. How do I do my part to end racism in America? I do it by treating everyone I meet as an equal. Period.
I’m black * and* Puerto Rican. Do you know something? I’m reminded that I’m black every single day. There is always, always something to remind me of how stupid, criminal or lazy I am-- every single fucking day of my goddamned life.
Although I am also Puerto Rican and that has it’s own stereotype, I am not reminded every single day of my life that I am somehow lacking because of it.
Now sometimes with some people, this daily barrage of negativity makes them hypersensitive. Everything is seen through a black/white filter. Everything bad that happens to them is somehow related to their blackness. These people can be quite vocal about it. (I’m thinking here along the lines of the eenie, menie airline lawsuit). These hypersensitive people DO NOT invalidate the fact that blacks are comfronted every day, day in and day out, with subtle and non-so-sublte reminders of how criminal, stupid and welfare-baby-daddy-genetically inferior they are.
How about an apology for calling me a racist? Or for claiming that I have poor reading comprehension skills? Or for the general snide and condescending tone that you are taking?
Here is the thing. I am not saying that we should go around treating people differently (or unequally). In principal, I think that this is a fine sentiment and applaud you for it.
What I am saying is that I believe that the same joke (in this case why beer is better than…) has a different impact on different groups of people. That is all.
Why don’t I find the shirt very offensive? On the one hand it seems like a boneheaded blunder on the promoters behalf, but on the other, some of the societal ills in this thread that have been extrapolated from a T-shirt boggle the mind.
Exactly! monstro didn’t say “f**k you all, SINCE you can’t understand how this is offensive” which would be an assumption.
He specifically targeted people who did NOT understand how it’s offensive. Since most people in this thread seem to be getting both why it’s offensive and that it’s offensive, YOU obviously were not included in the “everyone who doesn’t see that this is offensive”.
Whew, that sounded sortof like “who’s on first”!!! lol. I mean, come on, no one here was being targeted by monstro.
I think this is where the promoters made their error in judgment. I don’t think they were meaning to be racist or insulting, but trying to appeal to this type of thing, the movie scenes described above, when it came to their black female customers. It appears that their intent was an “aren’t we black girls independent, smart and cool, and aren’t our male counterparts dorks” kind of message. And of course not being black females themselves they failed dismally.
I have always hated those “why X is better than a man/woman etc” kindof jokes. Putdowns ARE offensive. PERIOD.
The problem is NOT that there is too much “whiny, PC, crap” going on (as idiot poster stated), but that too many people just think that anything goes. Anything is funny, nothing is sacred, very little basic manners or decency are practised in this country in this day and age.
And then people wonder why there is so much hatred and violence. Why we have such a “lemming mentality” society.
Huh~!!! I wonder.
So yes monstro. I was offended, offended at what the t-shirt said AND that the creators were too stupid to see that it was offensive.
Oh, and I’m not black, and I don’t live in an area with many black people, but yet I still see, without having it spoonfed to me (to the doofus who posted the “quit whining” garbage), why the t-shirt was offensive.
Actually, i think that if the shirt had been marketed in a predominantly black college, they never would have felt the need to use the word “black” at all. They might have had a picture of a black guy, but the text probably just would have read “10 Reasons why Beer is Better then Men.”
As a “white boy” myself, i’ll add my 2c by saying that i totally agree with monstro’s outrage. I will also say that a shirt that made the more general claim “10 Reasons why Beer is Better then Men” wouldn’t really offend me at all.
I realize that there’s a certain amount of inconsistency in this position, and i am cognizant of the argument made by weirddave and others that we should treat all prejudice equally.
However, to me a key aspect of the power of such stereotyping is the extent to which it reflects existing social realities and power structures. Also, the long history and memory associated with certain types of prejudice (e.g., against blacks in America) means that these things have a stronger valence in some communities than in others.
I’m not arguing here that every single African-American in the country is in poverty or feels downtrodden. A quick flick through Black Enterprise magazine shows that this isn’t the case. But the fact is, blacks are still disproportionately poor in this country, and in certain areas and in some policy decisions, this seems to be the result of either overt or structural racism. And, given the history of race relations in America, racist remarks by whites about blacks carry a different meaning than those made by blacks about whites, because of the relative social positions of the groups as a whole and the memory of past injustices.
I’m not saying this is an ideal situation, and i agree that in a perfect world all prejudice would be seen as equally bad. Nor am i saying that it is impossible for whites to be the victims of prejudice. For example, i really hate the term “white trash” because it is an epithet generally attached to a group with little social or economic influence. It’s not just a race-specific term, but it’s also class-oriented.
But i really can’t think of a general anti-white racial epithet that, when directed at me personally, would cause me any great offence, and i think the reason for this is that any such epithet is not backed up by social and economic power. I mean, how many white people really think terms like “honky” or “white boy” (or whatever other phrases you can think of) are as offensive, and as historically charged as “nigger”?
One person commented that living in Detroit might change one’s opinion about anti-white prejudice, but, in my case at least, i’m not sure that it would. Here in Baltimore, the population is about 65% black, and i sometimes feel self-conscious when i’m the only white guy on the bus. And there are places here that cater almost exclusively to a black clientele, and where whites are probably not welcome. Also, a person who works in the legal system told me that it can be hard to convict a black person of certain crimes (esp. against whites) because juries are often predominantly black and sympathetic to the offender (warning: totally anecdotal information).
Even though all these things (and others) might suggest a pattern of discrimination against whites, i still find it really hard to feel discriminated against. I mean, i’m a grad student on a pretty low income, but i still probably have a more comfortable lifestyle in a nicer neighbourhood than a good percentage of Baltimore’s black population. Most of the city’s wealthiest people are white, and in most of the affluent neighbourhoods there’s barely a black face to be seen. The mayor of the city is white, and until a short time ago so was the police chief. Almost every time i turn on the news and see a report on a shooting, the victims and the offenders are black, and many African Americans in the city live in fear every time they step outside their door. No, in conclusion, i find it hard to feel like a victim of prejudice even in this predominantly black city. Even when black men with guns rob white people on the streets in my neighbourhood (which, according to university security reports, happens at least once a week) i think this is more a case of going where the money is (lots of professional families and wealthy undergrads around here) than a case of racial antagonsim.
Anyway, this has been too long and rambling, but it represents my feelings on the subject. YMMV.
Actually, i think that if the shirt had been marketed in a predominantly black college, they never would have felt the need to use the word “black” at all. They might have had a picture of a black guy, but the text probably just would have read “10 Reasons why Beer is Better then Men.”
As a “white boy” myself, i’ll add my 2c by saying that i totally agree with monstro’s outrage. I will also say that a shirt that made the more general claim “10 Reasons why Beer is Better then Men” wouldn’t really offend me at all.
I realize that there’s a certain amount of inconsistency in this position, and i am cognizant of the argument made by weirddave and others that we should treat all prejudice equally.
However, to me a key aspect of the power of such stereotyping is the extent to which it reflects existing social realities and power structures. Also, the long history and memory associated with certain types of prejudice (e.g., against blacks in America) means that these things have a stronger valence in some communities than in others.
I’m not arguing here that every single African-American in the country is in poverty or feels downtrodden. A quick flick through Black Enterprise magazine shows that this isn’t the case. But the fact is, blacks are still disproportionately poor in this country, and in certain areas and in some policy decisions, this seems to be the result of either overt or structural racism. And, given the history of race relations in America, racist remarks by whites about blacks carry a different meaning than those made by blacks about whites, because of the relative social positions of the groups as a whole and the memory of past injustices.
I’m not saying this is an ideal situation, and i agree that in a perfect world all prejudice would be seen as equally bad. Nor am i saying that it is impossible for whites to be the victims of prejudice. For example, i really hate the term “white trash” because it is an epithet generally attached to a group with little social or economic influence. It’s not just a race-specific term, but it’s also class-oriented.
But i really can’t think of a general anti-white racial epithet that, when directed at me personally, would cause me any great offence, and i think the reason for this is that any such epithet is not backed up by social and economic power. I mean, how many white people really think terms like “honky” or “white boy” (or whatever other phrases you can think of) are as offensive, and as historically charged as “nigger”?
One person commented that living in Detroit might change one’s opinion about anti-white prejudice, but, in my case at least, i’m not sure that it would. Here in Baltimore, the population is about 65% black, and i sometimes feel self-conscious when i’m the only white guy on the bus. And there are places here that cater almost exclusively to a black clientele, and where whites are probably not welcome. Also, a person who works in the legal system told me that it can be hard to convict a black person of certain crimes (esp. against whites) because juries are often predominantly black and sympathetic to the offender (warning: totally anecdotal information).
Even though all these things (and others) might suggest a pattern of discrimination against whites, i still find it really hard to feel discriminated against. I mean, i’m a grad student on a pretty low income, but i still probably have a more comfortable lifestyle in a nicer neighbourhood than a good percentage of Baltimore’s black population. Most of the city’s wealthiest people are white, and in most of the affluent neighbourhoods there’s barely a black face to be seen. The mayor of the city is white, and until a short time ago so was the police chief. Almost every time i turn on the news and see a report on a shooting, the victims and the offenders are black, and many African Americans in the city live in fear every time they step outside their door. No, in conclusion, i find it hard to feel like a victim of prejudice even in this predominantly black city. Even when black men with guns rob white people on the streets in my neighbourhood (which, according to university security reports, happens at least once a week) i think this is more a case of going where the money is (lots of professional families and wealthy undergrads around here) than a case of racial antagonsim.
Anyway, this has been too long and rambling, but it represents my feelings on the subject. YMMV.
Hmmm… y’know if I were a black man I would be plenty pissed at a T shirt like that. Despite all the racial pride talk that well meaning people engage in, in real world terms the average, everyday American black man is among the most reviled and spat upon creatures in the modern industrial world. He is often characterized as an ineffectual, unreliable, misogynistic parasite by many black women and a hapless, potentially violent buffoon by many white people.
In all honesty a fair degree of my own image of myself IRL is how other people perceive and react to me. Even without knowing me personally people see a reasonably well dressed, tall, balding white man with wire rim glasses and a serious (I prefer thoughtful) look on my face and assume I am the manager of the store, the head of the department etc etc. People will barely glance at my credit card or checks and half the time will tell me “don’t worry about it” when I offer ID for purchase by check. Seemingly without concern for their safety they will open up stores just past closing time for me, just because I knock on the window or implore me to take expensive vehicles home for consideration for a few days if I am shopping for cars. Half the time they don’t know me from Adam, but I am given a pass because of the way I look and act.
If I was black and still the same astro inside, I doubt people would react to me like this. They would often ignore me and fear me. They would cross the street if I was coming up the same sidewalk in the evening. They would demand ID and would hesitate to engage me in conversation and I would rarely get the benefit of the doubt in anything. It would suck.
A mocking T-shirt like that, regardless of the origin, would be one of the last straws for my rapidly breaking black back.
If they were using this rationale, then they really are stupid. Your assumption is completely counter-intuitive given the setting in which the T-shirts showed up. These things were designed to be a promotional lure, so why would the guys in charge target the prize to only a relatively small portion of the student body (i.e. black women)? Wouldn’t it be more profitable to have a prize that appeals to everyone, regardless of sex and race?
I think you are trying hard to see this as simply a bad judgment call when it was actually a little more than that. Yeah, it was a bad judgement call, but it was also racist and inappropriate, and not excusable with just a “oops, my bad”. When people are quick to call these kinds of things stupid as opposed to racist, I get annoyed. People have been doing stupid shit for hundreds of years. That doesn’t mean the shit ain’t racist, too.