100 years in Iraq? Not with an all volunteer army.

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
So you have polled a large percentage of the Iraqi population to glean this information, then?
[/quote]
I didn’t. Other people did.

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
I have many, many experiences with the military and with vets that have done tours there, family members, friends, myself in the first go 'round in Kuwait…and everything that I have heard/seen is contrary to what you say (at least, in terms of the scale that you say it).
[/QUOTE]
And of course, I’m supposed to believe that THIS TIME, the war supporters are right. And why would I trust the word of anyone morally corrupt enough to participate in the conquest or occupation of Iraq ?

22

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
So you have polled a large percentage of the Iraqi population to glean this information, then?

I have many, many experiences with the military and with vets that have done tours there, family members, friends, myself in the first go 'round in Kuwait…and everything that I have heard/seen is contrary to what you say (at least, in terms of the scale that you say it).
[/QUOTE]

Did you read the cite he posted? Granted, it’s from 2005, and it’s specifically about the British, but:

So yes, somebody apparently has polled a statistically significant portion of the Iraqi population to glean this information.

Here’s one dealing with US troops from a year and a half ago.

Here’s one from August that says 93% of Sunnis think attacking coalition forces is acceptable.

I thought this was common knowledge. For all that Der Trihs gets shit for his hyperbolic tone, he’s pretty much spot on when he says that most Iraqis hate the coalition forces and want to see them dead.

23

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I didn’t. Other people did.

And of course, I’m supposed to believe that THIS TIME, the war supporters are right. And why would I trust the word of anyone morally corrupt enough to participate in the conquest or occupation of Iraq ?
[/QUOTE]

There is no moral corruption in following your orders as a member of the US Armed Services. None. Blame the government all you like for your perception of what is happening, but you cannot possibly be blaming soldiers for…soldiering.
And you’re certainly free to believe whatever you wish, it’s your right.

24

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
There is no moral corruption in following your orders as a member of the US Armed Services. None. Blame the government all you like for your perception of what is happening, but you cannot possibly be blaming soldiers for…soldiering.
And you’re certainly free to believe whatever you wish, it’s your right.
[/QUOTE]

This…

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
How about “most of the Iraqi population” ? For that matter, most of them support killing foreign soldiers, reasonably enough.

[/QUOTE]

…is a factual statement. Do you agree?

25

[QUOTE=black rabbit]
This…

…is a factual statement. Do you agree?
[/QUOTE]

It depends on whom the foreigners are. The implication in his post was that they were Americans…and I disagreed based on personal experiences from mine own and many others I have come into contact with as current or former military servicemembers that served in the region.
Now, I am not going to sit here and say that most Iraqis don’t want us out of Iraq, because I believe that they do. But most Iraqis wanting to kill us isn’t true. They realize the predicament that they are in, and like it or not, right now they need our forces there until a more stable situation can be achieved (and it is getting there, albeit slowly).

26

To dispense with the hijack, I’ve started another thread here.

27

[QUOTE=Biggirl]
I thought there would be a thread about this here already and I could read it and learn. But there isn’t. So. . .
Pentagon says it needs more troops for the anticipated increase in violence in Afghanistan and the Army Chief of staff says we’re fresh out.
I don’t even know what questions to ask. Surely there will be no draft in the near future. I can’t even see one in the far future-- Congress would never go for it. It’s political suicide.

I’m thinking we’ll hold on for the next 10 months and then start pulling out of Iraq slowly. Or, Bush will fire Casey and pretend everything is hunky-dory. But I’m far from an expert and I’d really like to hear the Dope Debaters take on this.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think a draft is as impossible as you portray, but it would indeed be very unpopular if it was instituted to maintain troop levels for an unpopular war, like the one we’re in now.
The military is definetely stretched thin, and it isn’t just boots on the ground, it’s equipment abuse, too. That is going to be VERY costly to remedy for future conflicts, as warfare ages vehicles and equipment rapidly.
In short, I don’t know what the oberall answer is, but as some have noted, if a draft is indeed to be avoided, recruitment dollars will swell and more youths will be needed to be enticed to join and serve.
I did it because I felt obligated to serve my country as so many in my family had before me, and because I didn’t feel I was mature enough to be successful in college at the age of eighteen.

28

This is where an all robot army would really come in handy. Not only are they more durable when hit by bullets and shrapnel (if a little pricey) but they don’t come back home and write books or give interviews about what they did and saw.

Maybe we can go seriously old school and start recruiting from abroad. Want to be an American and live the good life? Take a tour in the sunny Sunni triangle for a couple of years and you’re good to go.

29

Korea and Germany are geographically “symetrical” situations. The bad guys are/were on the other side of a non-porous frontier.

In Iraq, friend and foe are intermingled and largely indistinguishable. Continuing to make US forces availble to quell the fighting keeps them at risk and keeps the casualties coming. And a US base that is invulnerable to attack is also going to be ineffective in responding to any violence within Iraq.

And I think it’s a little premature to look forward to the day when the only problem in Iraq is the threat of Iranians crossing the border with conventional forces.

30

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
There is no moral corruption in following your orders as a member of the US Armed Services. None. Blame the government all you like for your perception of what is happening, but you cannot possibly be blaming soldiers for…soldiering.
[/QUOTE]
Of course I can. They aren’t automatons. You do realize that that is what you are accusing soldiers of being ? Inhuman things, with no judgement of their own.

Soldiers are people, capable of making choices and judgments on their own; not Terminators. Since they CAN make choices, they ARE liable for the morality of what they do. “I was just following orders” is NOT an excuse, for anything. Which means that they are guilty of mass murder.

31

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
I don’t think a draft is as impossible as you portray
[/QUOTE]

I think a draft is absolutely impossible. This isn’t 1970. All you have to do to avoid service is say “I’m gay,” or “I’m bisexual.” You don’t actually have to be gay or bisexual; saying you are (or, to use the popular terminology, “telling”) makes you ineligible to serve. The draft would only apply to those young men who were unwilling to say that to the draft board.

32

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Of course I can. They aren’t automatons. You do realize that that is what you are accusing soldiers of being ? Inhuman things, with no judgement of their own.

Soldiers are people, capable of making choices and judgments on their own; not Terminators. Since they CAN make choices, they ARE liable for the morality of what they do. “I was just following orders” is NOT an excuse, for anything. Which means that they are guilty of mass murder.
[/QUOTE]

I’d argue that you are guilty of mass murder. As someone who lives in the United States, unless you are engaged with all of your resources in constant, violent struggle to overthrow the government and force a withdrawal from Iraq you are perpetuating genocide just as much as the soldiers in Iraq.

33

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
There is no moral corruption in following your orders as a member of the US Armed Services. None. Blame the government all you like for your perception of what is happening, but you cannot possibly be blaming soldiers for…soldiering.
[/QUOTE]
You have heard of the Nuremberg trials, haven’t you?

34

[QUOTE=DanBlather]
You have heard of the Nuremberg trials, haven’t you?
[/QUOTE]

That is an invalid and unfair comparison. What comparison is there between the atrocities perpetrated *en masse * by Nazi Germany upon Jews to the US soldier of today?
The answer is almost zero. Yes, some (a distinct minority) soldiers get all crazy and defy morality with their behavior, but instances like Abu Ghraib are not only rare, but a direct result of a failure in command and control. That sorry Brigadier general bitch that was in charge of the prison claiming innocence is more vile than what her underlings did, IMO.
And that Asian USAR general’s investigation backed all that up. Can’t remember his name, nor provide a cite right now.

35

[QUOTE=saoirse]
I think a draft is absolutely impossible. This isn’t 1970. All you have to do to avoid service is say “I’m gay,” or “I’m bisexual.” You don’t actually have to be gay or bisexual; saying you are (or, to use the popular terminology, “telling”) makes you ineligible to serve. The draft would only apply to those young men who were unwilling to say that to the draft board.
[/QUOTE]

But how many people would actually do that? And it isn’t like other countries like Israel haven’t had success with a conscript military. I believe that SOME form of service to your nation should be compulsory, but not necessarily military.

36

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Of course I can. They aren’t automatons. You do realize that that is what you are accusing soldiers of being ? Inhuman things, with no judgement of their own.

Soldiers are people, capable of making choices and judgments on their own; not Terminators. Since they CAN make choices, they ARE liable for the morality of what they do. “I was just following orders” is NOT an excuse, for anything. Which means that they are guilty of mass murder.
[/QUOTE]

Dude, it’s clear that you have NO idea of what it means to serve in the military in defense of this country, whether you agree with that defense or not is irrelevant.
Shiny helmets and guns are provided in exchange for the loss of some rights in order to kill people and not get into trouble for it (within reason).
Defying a direct order from a superior is a tricky thing. Back in the day, if you fled, you wuold be shot in the back as a traitor. Now that we’re all PC and fuzzy clouds, we look into the psyche of the warrior culture, etc.
I would like you to stand up in front of a bunch of fucking Marines and say this shit. They would beat you about the head and you would deserve it.

37

Iraq Veterans Against the War | You are not alone Not all the soldiers are for the war either.

38

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Redirecting... Not all the soldiers are for the war either.
[/QUOTE]

The best soldiers I have EVER known were NEVER for war. Just readiness, in case.
The nutjobs I met in the Army while I served that foamed at the mouth to kill somebody were just that…nutjobs.

39

Zogby poll that says 72% of Iraq soldiers want us out within a year.

40

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
Yes, some (a distinct minority) soldiers get all crazy and defy morality with their behavior, but instances like Abu Ghraib are not only rare, but a direct result of a failure in command and control.
[/quote]
And what’s your evidence that they are rare ? Or that they were against orders ? We have an administration trying to excuse and define away torture, secret CIA prisons, “extreme rendition” where we send people to be tortured, Gitmo where people are tortured; the reports of torture by soldiers in the field, and on and on. I’d have to be a gullible fool to consider what happened at Abu Gharaib to be the kind of minor aberration you and your fellow apologists claim.

[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
I’d argue that you are guilty of mass murder. As someone who lives in the United States, unless you are engaged with all of your resources in constant, violent struggle to overthrow the government and force a withdrawal from Iraq you are perpetuating genocide just as much as the soldiers in Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: Yeah, right, because there’s no difference at all between shooting and bombing innocent people, supporting bombing and shooting innocent people, and OPPOSING bombing and shooting innocent people.

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
Dude, it’s clear that you have NO idea of what it means to serve in the military in defense of this country, whether you agree with that defense or not is irrelevant.
[/quote]
Our military isn’t defending us in Iraq. This is a war of unmitigated aggression; power lust, malice and greed in action.

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
Defying a direct order from a superior is a tricky thing. Back in the day, if you fled, you wuold be shot in the back as a traitor. Now that we’re all PC and fuzzy clouds, we look into the psyche of the warrior culture, etc.
[/quote]
What does that even mean ? As for the consequences of refusing, so what ? They are still less than the consequences of obedience are, to our soldier’s victims.

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
I would like you to stand up in front of a bunch of fucking Marines and say this shit. They would beat you about the head and you would deserve it.
[/QUOTE]
In other words, according to you US Marines are a bunch of thugs, incapable of any means of dealing with people besides violence. Even I think that saying “Go away, punk” is a concept they can grasp and articulate. Why, last I heard they have even managed to walk upright and cook their food.