I think the root cause is human population pressure. I believe the root cause of human population pressure in Indonesia is the religious teaching of the majority of the population. I feel deeply for these apes and I understand that people need to eat. What Indonesia needs is a declining birth rate. They need it soon; they needed it 20+ years ago. The nation is unstable. This will result in constant pressure against the remaining areas of wildness on the Islands.
Please tell me what they can do to protect these creatures when the drive for farmland is so very intense. Maybe there is an option besides reducing birth rate.
However, please look at the numbers and tell me this is not a nation out of control.
Can they get the Mullahs to go along with a birth rate reduction plan?
I understand, I sound like I am raving, I probably am raving, but please tell me why I am wrong.
Perhaps if you’d constructed an argument that was more comprehensive than, “they have overpopulation and are religious - QED,” there would be something to refute. Some might consider the fact that Indonesia is a developing nation with huge amounts of natural resources to be significant, but this point doesn’t get a look-in, apparently. And this is why you’re getting disagreement; you’ve fixated on one factor to the exclusion of all others, ignoring the fact that there are plenty of religious countries around whose populations aren’t exploding (let’s take Italy, the most famously Catholic nation in the world, and whose own cardinals would rather have their followers die of AIDS than spill their seed - what is Italy’s birth rate? 1.23, the second lowest in the western world, and massively below the replacement rate).
It’s not that you’re wrong, per se, as much as that you just popped out with something completely out of the blue with little to no justification, and are demanding to be satisfied in a thread that was formerly about something completely different. I think it was SUVs or something. I forget.
Funny you should bring up Italy. Check your research. Italy is less religious than the US. If you want very Catholic Nations, try Brazil for starters and work your way around South America.
This is the pit; I perceived the chain reaction of the death of the Orangutans to be the result of a population explosion on an Island nation that has failed to fight the population explosion due to the teachings of the primary religion. Are you suggesting that I thread shit on a pit thread? Is that possible? If so, I am deeply sorry to QtM, I did not think you could thread shit in the pit.
I think it does no good to condemn the local farmers for their brutality and wasteful ways when the cause is a government that cannot deal with a larger issue as their hands are tied by the religion of the country.
Am I making logic leaps, I guess I am. It seems like a fairly straight connection to me. How does Indonesia being “a developing nation with huge amounts of natural resources” change the basic equation?
So consider this a chance to fight ignorance. Explain what is wrong in my premise.
Either way, the existence of a country where most of the population are Catholic but the birth rate is low proves that religion isn’t the only determining factor in a country’s rate of population growth, and may not even be the main determining factor.
Eh. I’m not interested in a debate when you have no problem directly comparing the birth rates of rich nations with those of developing ones, then pretending you’ve proved something unrelated to economics. I wasn’t really interested in the debate in the first place, and if you were wondering whether you’d threadcrapped, well, I can only point you to the OP’s first, despairing response.
Now, about those endangered orange Thetans. I hear they’re the most susceptible to e-Meters.
Thank you, Anne Neville, for perceiving the point I was trying to make re: Italy.
The need for farmland for the ever expanding population is only part of the problem - I understood that rich Westerners need for cheap outdoor furniture, other wood products and exotic pets contributed as well. Be aware that you may be contributing to the problem albeit unwittingly.
Well as Italy is fairly well known to be Catholic by the mechanism of State Religion and Italians are now well known to barely practice, my point is Brazil is far more Catholic in reality than Italy. Of course Brazil also has a very high Birth rate vs. Death Rate and a very young median age.
TheCIA fact book on Italy specifically mentions: {My Bolding}
So, no, I do not think Italy disproves my theory in the least.
MelCthefirst: You are correct and I am well aware. I try to purchase Pine for most of my wood working. It is overwhelmingly grown on Tree Farms. I have a few pieces of tropical wood furniture, I am not perfect, but I try hard.
Dead Badger: So you have decided that you I thread-craped in this **PIT ** thread? This is the first I have heard of this offense.
Qadgop the Mercotan: If I have offended, please step in and tell me to stop or give me permission to continue and I will honor your wishes.
Okay, I am slow and I am sorry and I am out of here. Please check your Email for a formal apology.
I will not respond in this thread anymore. I will unsubscribe in fact and hopefully let it fade away.
Ah; I was looking for (and just found) this, which some talented soul on b3ta made, the last time people spared 30 seconds to notice we were killing all the orangutans.
Speaking of 8 year birth intervals, this reminds me of another orange creature we’ve managed to eat into near-extinction, the orange roughy. Aces!, we thought. We’ve discovered tasty deep sea fish all around New Zealand, plentiful and all that shit. Let’s go nuts! And lo, we went nuts. Oops, we discovered, after eating nearly all of them; they live for anywhere between 50 and 100+ years, and don’t start mating until they’re 30. Ah well, let’s still import 8,000 tons of them annually.
How upset was I to discover I’d been eating fish older than my gran? Fucking upset.
I’m a zoo parent of an Orang Utan named Merah at the St. Louis Zoo. This just breaks my heart. I’ve been following their recommendations in an effort to do my part to save their habitat, and for anyone else interested in doing the same, here’s what they suggest. . . [
[quote]
So what can be done to help Sumatran orangutans? Though the situation is dire, there are organizations and individuals in many countries trying to reverse their severe decline. They are working to stop illegal logging, to increase sustainable economic alternatives for communities surrounding orangutan habitat, helping instill national pride in orangutans and their environment, and rehabilitating ex-captive orangutans into protected habitat. To find out about one such group – the Balikpapan Orangutan Society – click on www.orangutan.com.
You can help too. You can donate money to conservation organizations working to help orangutans or to save their habitat. You can also help in the effort to protect orangutan habitat by choosing wisely when you shop for certain products. Avoid buying wood or wood products that originate in fragile tropical forest areas: [ul]
[li] Ramin is one of the most frequently logged types of wood from Borneo – used to make broom and brush handles and other common consumer items. To avoid ramin, instead choose items with plastic or metal handles.[/li][li] Teak, ironwood, ebony and sandalwood are all logged in Indonesia. Avoid these.[/li][li] The unsustainable harvest of lauan, a tropical plywood, is taking a huge toll on tropical forest habitat in Asia and the South Pacific. Make sure any plywood you buy (including plywood used in flooring and furniture construction) is harvested sustainably. Certain retailers, including Lowe’s and Home Depot, are taking steps to discontinue sale of lumber products from environmentally sensitive areas. Ask your retailer where your wood products come from.[/li][li] The production of rayon, made from wood pulp, is a huge consumer of rainforest resources. Avoid buying clothes made with rayon viscose.[/li][li] Palm oil plantations have been responsible for the clearing of hundreds of thousands of acres of orangutan habitat. Avoid foods that contain palm oil, palm kernel, palmitate or any derivative with the word[/ul][/li][/quote]
](http://www.stlzoo.org/animals/abouttheanimals/mammals/lemursmonkeysapes/sumatranorangutan.htm)
