Could the state of Florida decide to punish speeding by being sold in slavery? What if you commit murder; could they then establish slavery, but only for convicted murderers? At what point in between?
Thanks
I think you’d have to be convicted of charges of slavery first.
Then you could be punished for slavery according to that amendment.
So if a court of law found you guilty of slavery while you were speeding… then sure, why not?
But IANAL… but even then, this is a very odd question to me.
It’s not that odd a question. It’s clearly a response to the specifics of the 13th Amendment:
The OP is asking about the bounds of the condition “except as a punishment for crime”. I have no idea of the correct legal answer, but I’d guess that slavery as a punishment for trivial offenses such as speeding would run afoul of the cruel and unusual punishment bit in the 8th.
I think you misunderstand the question. The OP is asking if the government could enslave you as punishment for speeding. In my opinion, they couldn’t because it would be cruel and unusual punishment. You might have a case for murder, but it would still be “unusual” and would definitely have to encoded in law, i.e. a judge couldn’t just decide for himself to institute it.
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
ETA: And the idea isn’t that far out there; chain gangs are a perfect example of involuntary servitude.
You both have mentioned “cruel and unusual punishment” in the 8th. Since the 13th was passed in 1865, more than 70 years AFTER the 8th, and recognizes slavery as a valid punishment for conviction of a crime, wouldn’t it override the 8th amendment?
It would be cruel and unusual to punish parking violations with life imprisonment, but that doesn’t make life imprisonment a valid punishment for serious crimes.
Not all punishments are valid for all crimes. You can’t be executed for littering.
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
JINX! 
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
No, because nothing in the 13th Amendment actually removes the requirement that punishment not be cruel or unusual.
Also, note that slavery was legal prior to the amendent; the clause simply allows it to remain legal in the special case of involuntary labor as punishment for crime. If a slave state already had the equivalent of the 8th Amendment prohibition in its state constitution (the federal 8th Amendment would not apply prior to 14th Amendment incorporation), then it would still have been illegal to enslave someone for petty crime, and that would continue to be the case.
Do they still sentence people to hard labor? In any case. convicts get paid for their work (barely, but still).
Well, it’s probably not “hard labor”, but if the old joke about convicts making license plates is true…
Oh, I never even stopped to think of it that way- that the Government would be the one doing the enslaving…
What an odd thought. Then again, isn’t life in prison similar to slavery?
Well, the DP is a different beast because the Supremes have twisted that beyond it’s original meaning, but no matter. Let’s try it this way:
The 13th recognizes slavery as valid punishment for conviction of a crime. For which crime would be legitimate to sell someone into slavery? Murder, Rape, Arson, Robbery? If a guy is convicted of serial murder, could the state set up an auction system to sell him into slavery?
If not, why not?
Where not prohibited by state law, it is legal to lease a convict to a private sector employer for the duration of his/her incarceration, with the employer providing security during the duration of the work. Because of a particular law regulating the sale of goods in interstate commerce made by prisoners, agriculture is the only industry where it actually can take place at wages far below that which prevails in the industry. You do not have to commit a particular crime to be leased out by the state. In fact, for reasons that are obvious, employers prefer non-violent offenders.
At the moment, Arizona and Colorado lease prisoners to the private sector agricultural industry. BTW, there is no constitutional requirement that prisoners receive pay for their work, although generally they do receive some.
My student note is about this topic… wanna read it? Bwahahahahahaha.
I asked this very same question some time back. IIRC, the question never did get answered because it got bogged down into a discussion of convict labor and prison industry, which is not what the OP is asking. The question is whether being sold into chattel slavery to a private party, presumably for life, could be allowed as punishment for a felony under the 13th amendment. (And incidentally, while Florida is notorious for it’s traffic laws I don’t believe speeding counts as a felony.)
I belive the general consensus was that even if the 13th allowed it it would be illegal under other provisions such as the 14th. I tend to agree simply because if this was never done even in the Jim Crow deep south, it probably can’t be done.
During hurricane Gustav, I remember hearing the mayor on the radio saying that anyone caught looting in New Orleans before the curfew was lifted would be sent straight to Angola [prison].
Given Angola’s reputation that sure sounds like the same thing. For those readers unfamiliar with Angolas’s reputation: Inside Angola Prison, Louisiana’s Last Slave Plantation
*Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for *crime *where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
*
I think the word crime is key. In many jurisdictions traffic offenses and ordinance violations aren’t crimes.
I wonder if anyone has used this argument against performing community service after being convicted of a non-criminal offense? Forcing one to pick up garbage on the highway for being convicted of an ordinance violation of disturbing the peace violates ones 13th Amendment rights?
This is not legal advice, I am not a lawyer!
I think you all are reading it wrong, mostly because of weird use of commas that is endemic throughout the constitution. (Hi there 2nd amendment!)
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
=
Slavery shall not exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction, nor shall involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
The latter is the way it has been interpreted throughout history so it’s probably a better match for the original intent.
Remember the Constitution of the United States isn’t what it says, it is what the Supreme Court SAYS it is.
Many people tried to get out of the draft, saying serving in the armed forces is involuntary and it’s cleary service. And the 13th Amendment is a CHANGE.
TSCOTUS said “No, that isn’t what it means, the 13th Amendment refers to slavery.”
To me a lay person,being drafted IS involuntary servitude in the strict dictonary sense of the word.
But the constitution IS what the Supreme Court says, not what the dictionary says
Short answer: yes, you can be sentenced to slavery for traffic violations.
You can be incarcerated for traffic violations. Most prisons and jails require their inmates to work. They do not get a choice in the matter. If I can order a prisoner to mop the floor and he has to even if he doesn’t want to, that’s involuntary servitude.