150,000 Christians are killed for their faith each year?

Great Debates
61

I think the problem is that being killed for one’s faith is actually a fairly nebulous concept.

Take a simple case. You believe X. I kill you because I think that people ought not to believe X, and that those who do believe X deserve to die. I think most people would have no difficulty in concluding that you had been killed for your faith in X. But this is not, in fact, a very common scenario.

Suppose that, on account of your belief in proposition X, you undertake action Y. You consider that action Y is something that your beliefs require of you. I kill you because I belief that people ought not to undertake action Y, and that those who do undertake it deserve to die. I am utterly uninterested in your reason for undertaking action Y. Had you had an entirely different motivation, or had your action been motiveless and capricious, I would have killed you just the same.

Have you been killed for your faith? From your perspective, undoubtedly, yes. From my perspective, definitely not. From the perspective of a third party? Well, that depends.

Suppose Action Y was a refusal to offer sacrifice at the altar of the Emperor-God. Most people, I think, would accept that Christians who were persecuted in classical Rome for their refusal to participate in the civic religion were being persecuted for their faith.

But suppose Action Y is giving shelter to Jews who are fugitives from the Nazis in some part of occupied Europe. If you do this because you feel ethically bound to do so, given your beliefs, are you then persecuted for your beliefs? Or for breaking the law against giving shelter to fugitives?

Suppose your action is a refusal to serve in the armed forces, motivated by your ethical beliefs. If you are punished for that, are you being punished for your beliefs, or for failing in your legal civic duty to participate in your country’s defence?

What if your action is a refusal to pay taxes?

What if it’s a refusal to observe the laws regarding animal slaughter/processions in the street/not ringing bells at night/taking an oath/marrying only before a clergyman of the established church?

I cautiously suggest that we’re much more likely to recognise someone as being persecuted for their beliefs in this situation if they are beliefs that we share, or sympathise with. Thus the Christian who is killed for refusing to participate in the civic religion is a martyr for the faith, whereas the unreconstructed Mormon who marries six wives is prosecuted for his practice of bigamy, and not for his religious beliefs.

62

Is that so? Why did the early church have women in leadership then? Why were many of the early church precisely the black slave/women types? Did the early Church kill non-Christians? Did they repress homosexuals? I appreciate that, once the Roman Empire decided to adopt the faith as their state faith things fell apart, but is it honest to dismiss Christianity because of the influence of a non-Christian empire?

Well, it gets referred to quite a lot in both right- and left-wing press here in the UK.

Does any Christian organisation you know have the annihilation of Islam or some other group written into their constitution? Yes, I accept that there has been something similar written into certain Christian groups in the past, but I am talking about today.

63

Ironically, not only is Christianity not exclusively a Westerner’s belief, it existed in places far further East than Makkah long before Islam ever cam into existence. Furthermore, it was an Indian religion a couple of hundred years before it became a European one.

64

You are misrepresenting my post. The fact is that they do not believe Sharia should apply to non-Muslims regardless of the fact of who they consider Muslim or not. They do not believe Sharia should apply to non-Muslims. That is what I said and that is true. They do not want to impose Sharia on other groups. They do not want to conquer America and impose Sharia.

Look, I consider religion, all religions, to be very negative forces and just one more motive to divide us. But just as bad and for the same reason is nationalism and many other reasons we humans use to divide us. Your average Egyptian yahoo finds his group identity in being Muslim while your average American yahoo finds his group identity in being American. Both find reasons to hate and kill in their identities and I cannot see how being killed by a religious zealot is any worse than being killed by a nationalist zealot. The fact that nationalism has replaced religion in America as the cohesive glue which binds society together and against other groups does not make America more advanced. Nationalism is just as harmful and backward as religion when it comes to creating hate and yet America is one of the most nationalist countries on earth and considers it a virtue. Well, many Muslims find their identity in being Muslim and fighting their perceived enemies and consider that a virtue. I believe both are just as wrong. I would prefer to not be killed by any of the two.

In any case, the claim of the OP is pure bullshit. Christians are not being killed for their faith. And, on the whole, Christians have it pretty good. Certainly much better than Muslims.

65

UDS, this looks very much like you are determined to avoid admitting that people are killed on account of their faith, but can’t say it without createing multiple scenarios to excuse your POV.

66

I agree. Those comparisons are not helpful.

The fact is that Christians are not dying for their faith in any way that con be considered significant. The OP is BS and does not need tortured comparisons.

67

Cite

[QUOTE=official Taliban Radio Voice of Shari’a]

Shari’a-prescribed punishment has been administered to two sodomites [in] Herat Province. The cases of the accused were investigated by the public prosecution office of Herat Province, where the accused confessed to their crimes without duress or torture.
[/quote]

Cite

On the bright side, (per the logic oft repeated in this thread) maybe they wouldn’t kill you because your are a “queer atheist”. Atheism doesn’t seem to come into their argument. Just being homosexual seems to be enough for seven Islamic countries to impose the death penalty for homosexuality.

68

In an earlier post, SA said

Thanks for confirming that the people murdered were murdered on account of their beliefs, SA.

69

Not significant to whom?

Just how many Christians/Jews/Romany/blacks/Armenians/Tutsi do you have to kill for it to be significant?

70

Thanks Iggy: would you agree that the subject of homosexuality, which is not a belief system, should not be being raised as a direct parallel to recognised belief systems, even if it is acceptable to use it as an example of certain religious people’s intolerance. Would the Islamic fundamentalists murder folk for being atheists, which I understand is a belief system (even if it is one based on a negative)?

71

So when it suits you you refer to the “early church” and dismiss centuries of atrocities committed by Christians. And when it suits you you refer to things today and discount the past.

Look, it is pure bullshit that “150,000 christians die for their faith each year”. It’s BS. And in countries where there is violence you can be killed for belonging to the wrong group and each country and group finds their identity in different things but in the end it is all the same violence.

In some parts of Asia the majority has attacked and killed ethnic Chinese. In Mexico and Central America for belonging to the wrong gang. In many parts of the Muslim world for belonging to the wrong Muslim flavor (Sunni / Shia). In many parts of Africa for belonging to the wrong tribe. And in many parts of the world for just living your life in a country which America has decided is a good place to flex its muscle. All are wrong reasons for killing people. America’s reasons are no better than any others and I wish everybody would just stop it. All they do is create hate and misery.

72

That is not what you said, you said that they thought it should only apply to believers. And that is not true.

You definitely underestimate the widespread influence of Islamic fundamentalism when you try to make the comparison to American nationalism. More than half of the Muslims in Egypt support stoning people for consensual sex! Supposedly overly nationalist America has very liberal immigration policies and is still kicking itself for interring Japanese citizens 70 years ago.

The numbers may be BS but your last sentence there is too.

For sure.

73

It is not true that 150,000 Christians are being killed every year for their faith. Just not true.

Even one is one too many and the perpetrators should be caught and punished. But what the OP wants to do is just smear millions of people by throwing them all together into an undefined group who “persecutes and kills Christians”. It is just not true.

But why are we caring so much about a lie?

How many deaths of innocents, how many millions of displaced, how much destruction of lives and property has the American invasion of Iraq caused? It is thousands of times worse than “Christian persecution” and the government and country who did it are well identified. Why don’t Americans care about this? Because the dead and suffering are not Americans, that’s why.

74

You appear to have confused “nationalism” and “patriotism”.

Beyond that your post is rather insulting to most Christians in the Middle East where various countries are in a race to see who can kick out more Christians quicker. The Iraqis are in first place, but the Israelis and the Palestinians are giving them some fairly stiff competition, the Egyptians are breathing down the necks of their Levantine neighbors and if things go badly in Syria the Syrians may overtake them all.

I find the 150,000 figure bullshit but based on your post seems to be aggressively denying reality, unless you also insist the Nazis didn’t kill the Jews because they were Jews but because they were “non-Aryans”.

75

I don’t support stoning people for any reason. I am opposed for the death penalty in any form. I find it barbaric.

On the other hand I believe countries need to be left alone to find their way and there is no excuse to impose our values and customs on them.

You think American nationalism is not that bad? For over 100 years America, like other western, imperialist countries, has been attacking other countries and in many cases committing attrocities.

Central America, Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, etc. We went to attack those people, they didn’t come to attack us. We wanted to take their oil and other resources and impose our will on them. If they cooperate, like Saudi Arabia, then we let them live. If they do not cooperate we kill them. All in the name of civilization.

76

This is wrong. When America uses drones tokill Taliban leaders in Pakistan, who are killing thousands of civilians, ourreasons are better than the reason of the seven Islamic countries who kill people for homosexuality.

77

What I find disingenuous is to be selective in accepting some reasons for hating and killing and not others. All are wrong. Religion is wrong and so is nationalism. Muslims consider those who kill for their faith heroes and they are wrong. Americans consider those who kill for their country heroes and they are just as wrong. They are both killing for the same reason: to destroy the “other” who is not part of my group. Muslims who support the killing of others are wrong and are just as bad and just as wrong as Americans who support the killing of non-Americans.

Yes, some Christians are persecuted, so are many Muslims and many other groups but to single out Christians as a persecuted group is just silly. Christians on the whole have probably the best lot in this world.

78

I disagree that America or any other imperialist power has any right to impose their culture on any one and much less by force and by killing. But if you accept that killing people in other countries is a legitimate way to spread a culture then don’t complain if the others kill a few of your side. America likes to use violence but then denies the violence of its enemies is legitimate.

I oppose all violence except in self-defense. I am definitely against the death penalty but I would not defend attacking America to stop the barbaric practice. Each country needs to find their own way. Many Christian countries have been quite barbaric until recently and many continue to be.

79

Egyptian and Pakistani Christians are persecuted groups, there is no debate there. More so than any group in America has been in a long time.

80

How many Egyptian and Pakistani Christians have been killed or displaced in the last 10 years? Who is responsible? What can we do about it? (Besides condemn it which we do)

How many Iraqis have been killed, displaced or lost all their possessions by the American invasion of Iraq? Who is responsible? What can we do about it? Do we even condemn it? How is this any better?