1970s/80s Inflation Question (US)

This Politico article

about Thomas Hoenig includes this statement about inflation in the US during the 70s and 80s

“This was the period that has come to be known as the Great Inflation, a period in the 1970s characterized by long lines at gas stations and price hikes at grocery stores that came so fast price tags were replaced midday.”

Now I was very young at the time. And of course, I’ve read of hyperinflation where prices are indeed changed multiple times per day. However, my understanding is that US inflation peaked at 15% per year, which ends up around .04% per day. I’m quite skeptical that this would necessitate twice daily (or even daily) price adjustments.

Can anyone confirm if this really was a thing in the US in that period?

(I take a few other issues with the story, FWIW, largely around what I think is oversimplification to the point of counterfactual)

I don’t have first-hand experience, but I’d like to point out that the 15% figure is overall inflation. The 1970s were also the time of two major oil crises (1973 and 1979), when oil prices rose more than the overall level of prices (of which they were a key driver).

Yes and no. Issues are more complex than can be summed up in one little article, and Hoenig was not as right as the author makes him out to be.

The USA did not have hyperinflation. That’s the term when prices go up daily or hourly, when (as the joke goes) it’s cheaper to take a taxi than the bus because the taxi ride you don’t pay until the end when the money’s worth less. Assorted countries have had that problem - Zimbabwe, Nicaragua, Argentina, Russia. Nevertheless, the western world at the time did have a major adjustment to do when the base price of oil went from $1 a barrel to $10 a barrel overnight thanks to OPEC upset over the US support of Israel in the 1973 war. Inflation in the USA was more along the lines of “this costs 10% more than it did 6 month ago or a year ago.” The result was a minor feeding frenzy, “buy it now before the price goes up and pay it off more easily when your wages increase”. The extra demand simply fueled inflation more.

that price jump rippled through the economy, and it seemed that countries were locked in a cycle of - price increase, wage increase, price increase, wage increase… Everything depended on oil. Each item’s price adjustment triggered a wave of follow-on price increases. manufacturing cost more, trucking cost more, electricity cost more. The solution was eventually to raise interest rates so high that people/companies stopped spending and the economy cooled off.

the article screams about how much money the government has printed in the last few decades, without considering that really the past numbers need to be adjusted for inflation and the size of the economy. Plus, some of the measures taken were absolutely necessary - without stimulus, the economy would have crashed even harder. Some politicians were against aid to prevent giant industries like the automakers from crashing; these manufacturers did nothing wrong, but thanks to banks that through fraud and stupidity crashed the banking system, the economic engine froze nobody would be able to buy cars. Basically no bank trusted that any other could pay their bills, no bank trusted that the guy wanting a car loan would have a job in a few months, etc. Saying “no” to government aid was exactly the wrong idea.

Same with COVID - without some government intervention, everything from airlines, hotels and restaurants to hospitals and any factory needing workers would be bankrupt or in dire straits. Stimulus was called for. “Let them eat cake” indifference was not the solution.

the inflation we find ourselves in today is not the same as 1975. Then, a very basic commodity suddenly became much higher priced, with ripple effects. Today’s inflation is a side effect of world-wide factory and supply chain disruptions causing shortages. As these disruptions ease off (we hope they will soon) the shortages will become less and prices will return to normal. (I’ve seen, for example, the price of the same package of bacon bounce between $19 and $25 up and down a few times in the last months, depending on availability.) Commodities like oil are the least disrupted by COVID. The only other issue I see is the disruption of commodities like food due to concurrent climate change issues.

One can argue too that the biggest problem is the US political system. Perhaps it’s not necessary to go back to the days when millionaires paid a marginal tax rate of 70% or higher, but the US consistently spends about $1.25 for each $1.00 it takes in. As the saying goes - “if thing can’t keep going on like this… they won’t.”

But Hoenig does have a point. Each successive crisis over the last few decades has driven down the interest rate and the central banks have had a hard time getting the rate back up. High prices for everything, baked into the system - are a result of low rates. people can afford more expensive houses, cars, and other items because they can afford bigger loans with interest being low. Any attempt to return to reasonable rates will trigger a round of adjustments that will be as painful as the 1980 adjustments - foreclosures, economic slowdown, etc. Also, with interest being so low, today people look for alternative ways to put their money to work - which is what the whole subprime scam was about, bonds that were allegedly safe and paid absurdly high rates of return. Much of that money now goes into the stock market, turning it into a casino gambling on what will pay off - also a game the rich can play far better than the average Joe. Decades ago, people bought reliable stocks for their dividends. Today, it’s all about capital gains.

Sooner or later interest rates will have to return to a realistic level. For my vaguest recollection, the 50’s and 60’s were relatively stable with about 4% general rates of return.

I remember the inflation of the 70’s. Prices may not have risen daily but many things did monthly.

The price of groceries kept going up, especially milk. And the price of meat rose sharply. This was probably tied in to the price of oil. Didn’t matter what caused it, it sucked. For decades Americans were spoiled with cheap gasoline. I started driving in ‘75 and it was “screw you, the party is over”.

Unemployment was pretty bad. The local Dairy Queen would post an ad for a part-time minimum wage job and 300 adults would show up because their unemployment benefits ran out.

I think we’re headed right back to that situation only worse. In the 70’s other than unemployment compensation the government wasn’t handing out a bunch of pandemic money and freezing housing payments. Interest rates are too low and the Fed is printing too much cash. There is currently too many dollars chasing too few goods. Interest rates need to be raised to soak up the excess currency in circulation. And for gawds sake, now is not the time to raise the minimum wage to $15,

Yes, the problem in the late 70’s was not so much inflation as the concurrent expectation that “things will keep going like this”.

As an example, the Citizen’s Coalition was a right wing group advocating for Canadian taxpayers in the 1980’s. they would publish ads like “your member of parliament is paying almost nothing into their pension fund and when they retire, could be collecting over $1M a year!!!” Read the fine print, and it assumed an ongoing rate of inflation of around 10%, so with that $1M pension, a cup of coffee (not Starbucks) then would cost $100. This was the standard mentality - that high annual inflation was here to stay, and people were making their financial decisions based on it.

This also messes with minds, because depending on whether statistics include “adjusted for inflation” comparisons had different validity - much like the linked article’s “we’ve printed 3 times as much money in the last 20 years as in the previous 200.”

Also this is where the inflation adjustment mentality came from. For example, one plant near where I lived, the workers went on strike - one of their demands was to add inflation adjustment for older pensioners. People who’d retired in the 1960’s when there was no inflation adjustment were collecting only $300 a month, which barely bought anything by 1985.

the solution for the entire Western world was to jointly raise interest rates to stifle this tendency; which of course had the follow-on effect of reducing economic activity, raising unemployment. It didn’t help that this coincided with the transition to automation, a service economy, and the export of manufacturing jobs - so traditional factory employment plummeted during this recession, creating the rust belt as we know it.

The question is whether the situation is similar today. The problem is not too many people with a lot of money able to buy - if anything, there’s fewer. the problem is that the factories can’t pump out the good as fast as they normally would. This seems to be a different problem, which can correct itself much faster as factories return to normal production levels. The real question I see is the disproportionate recovery - whether some sectors may take a much longer time to recover - will travel return to old levels soon? If not, what happens to airlines? and therefore, to the aircraft industry? Some regions are heavily dependent on tourism. Without those outside dollars, will locals resort to ecologically disastrous means to get by?

the world will be a different place.

(The key indicator is whether the prices will drop as production improves, or stay high. If Peleton bikes are any indication, the answer is prices will drop when supply meets demand.)

It is total BS that prices were rising hourly or daily or even weekly. Maybe monthly, although I don’t recall that. Yes it was 15% annual and it was baked into expectations, which was bad. And it took a recession to end it. In any case, so far, I do not see anything like it.

If coffee, gasoline, and comic books were your indicators, then it seemed like hyperinflation. As a 13 year old I only cared about the latter. The price of some things like Slurpees, chewing gum, and kite string barely rose at all.

This is true, but there is also a supply chain problem. Both in getting materials to the factories for them to make things, and then to get those finished goods to consumers. That there are often several links in a manufacturing chain located all across the world compounds this.

Even if all factories were at full capacity, it would still take quite a while to get all the kinks out of the logistic chains.

Have you been to the grocery store lately?

This is the fastest I have seen prices go up in over 40 years!

The long lines at gas stations really had little or nothing to do with inflation. What was called the Arab Oil Embargo was a response by some Middle East countries who shut down or curtailed oil shipments to the US and other countries in retaliation to support for Israel during the Yom Kippur War.

Certain rules were put into place, like only being able to purchase gas on certain days based upon the license number of your car. Jimmy Carter being viewed as a weak president who wouldn’t do anything but tell the citizens to put on a sweater. The Iranian Hostage crisis, etc. that led directly to the election of Ronald Reagan. The realization that the western world was too dependent upon oil from the Middle East. Panic hoarding similar to recent supplies during the Covid pandemic.

The article quoted in the OP even mentioning ‘long lines at gas stations’ just says to me that the author, Thomas Hoenig, does not know what he is talking about. And quoting Politico carries about the same fair and balanced view as quoting Fox News.

After slogging through the entire Politico article, it seems to me that the ‘long lines at gas stations’ may have been inserted by the author of the article, Christopher Leonard rather the actual views of Thomas Hoenig. I withdraw my complaint about Thomas Hoenig.

Yes. And to be clear, while I am enjoying the general discussion, the point of the question was whether prices at grocery stores, in the US, during the non-hyper but just high- inflationary period of the late 70s and early 80s, were actually being adjusted on a daily or greater basis.

There were many things in the article that set off my BS meter, but that one in particular seemed at best a gross exaggeration of something that half the people alive today lived through.

I was looking for either citable or anecdotal evidence of that happening.

People are interpreting “price tags were replaced midday” as “price tags were replaced multiple times a day”, but I don’t think that’s what the author meant.

The way inflation works is not that every day it goes up by X%. It goes in a herky-jerky pattern, with ocasional increases followed by periods of no change at all. In a situation where inflation is low, then even those ocasional changes are likely to be small, and you could wait until the store was closed, or perhaps even until you restock, to reprice things. But if inflation is higher, then you might suddenly find out that your supplier/distributor just raised prices to the extent that you feel you need to up your retail prices right now which would necessitate a mid-day change.

But the supply chain is just another side of the same problem - it suffered from shortage of workers, lockdowns, breakdown of the just-in-time inventory issue.
(Another insidious problem is container shortages - apparently a lot of PPE was shipped to third world countries, then it was inefficient to send a ship just to retrieve those empty containers from places that normally did not ship containers full of goods.)

A large problem is dependencies. I recently had to shop for a new dishwasher. Appliances are in short supply. rather, some appliances. But worse than that, the salesman mentioned that they also had to pay extra for warehouse space. They supply appliances for new condo construction; but the the builders don’t want to accept partial shipments. Worse yet, it can be stupid small things. They have a large number of ovens in storage, because the builders have a shortage of the junction box the ovens plug into. The builders don’t want the appliances delivered unless the kitchen is ready.

There will be fits and starts as the supply chain gets back up and running, but eventually the missing pieces will be filled in. As an example, by targeting the port backlog, it appears the situation has improved significantly.

the significant questions with the current situation are - how long to get back to normal? And… are the new higher prices baked in or will they drop back?

International exchange rates can change quite quickly too

here’s USD to YEN for the last 5 decades . I use yen on the basis japanese electronics would be important purchases for the typical american.

prices of imported goods or goods made from imported materials can jump because of an exchange range jump.

People had bumper stickers on their cars saying: “I got no beef with Nixon”

A decade later, in the early 1980s, six-month CDs were earning 14%. I had some. I shoulda got 20-year CDs and locked that rate in!

I remember food prices going up, but not so rapidly that adjustments were made daily.

One side effect IMO of the inflation in food prices is the rapid adoption of grocery store UPC scanning at the checkout. It used to be that individual items had price stickers on them, so an increase in the price of, say, a can of tomato soup meant that a worker had to put a new sticker on each can of soup on the shelf. This obviously was costly and time-consuming.

Many people were suspicious that the price charged at the register might be higher than the one posted on the shelf. Therefore, most stores had a policy that if a product rang up at a price higher than the one on the shelf, the customer got the product for free.

ISTR gas prices going up more rapidly, so that the sight of a worker on a ladder changing the price on the sign was pretty common. Yes, there wasn’t an electronic sign at the gas station.

In the late '70s and early '80s, I worked part-time at the hardware store that my family owned. I did, indeed, spend a portion of my work time there adjusting prices on some inventory items, because the cost to restock them had gone up. We were still using price stickers on each item, so it was tedious work, because I had to scrape/peel the old stickers off, before putting new stickers on. (My father specifically and repeatedly instructed me to do it this way, because (a) he knew that a stack of two or three price stickers would tell our customers that we had raised prices, and (b) he knew I was lazy. :wink: )

That said, it was by no means being done on a daily basis, or across the board – any particular item might have seen us raising the retail price on it once or twice a year, and I think that a lot of the inventory saw its price unchanged over the course of a year, even at the highest levels of inflation at that time.