1st Amendment "Freedom of Religion" clause

That is an awesome piece of scholarship and clarity, Gfactor; congratulations!

Unfortunately, you should smack Little Ed with a copy of the federal code. The column is full of typographical errors (adison for Madison in P.5, duplication of Brennan argued for in P.30), incomplete and unlinked URLs, and sloppy and awkward blocking of long quotations.

Despite Ed’s worst efforts, though, the column remains one of the clearest and best accounts of Constitutional interpretive schools I’ve ever read.

Two points could do with some slight clarification, however. The difference between the “original meaning” and “textualist” schools of originalism is a bit confusing. I think I grok it–both look for the original meaning of the text, but the “original meaning” school holds that a single, authoritative meaning exists that would have been universally accepted at the time of origin, while textualists apply something more like a “reasonable man” test, while taking into account the appropriate time frame for the hypothetic reasonable man. Is that close?

Secondly, you quote Justice Scalia as writing that originalism is the “lesser of two evils.” What is the greater evil? What is there besides some form of originalism or another? Applying the modern meaning of the text?

Finally, although it was clearly beyond the scope of your article, I’m curious about the history of the 14th Amendment. Why did it take so long for the Establishment Clause to be applied to the states, compared to other parts of the Bill of Rights?

Damn! I forgot to include a link, and I missed the edit window. :o

Here it is.

Thanks Alan Smithee. I’m actually on my way out the door right now. But I’ll respond to your questions when I return tomorrow.

When someone gets a chance, the coding for links in the document needs to be switched from vB tags to HTML.

The report is great work as always, Gfactor.

Dammit, I was NOT intending to read a scholarly work on one of my favorite subjects this morning. :frowning: Thanks a lot… :stuck_out_tongue:

Wow. A truly awe-inspiring piece Gfactor. What a fascinating read this morning. I had no idea of the complex and intertwined history of this misleadingly basic statement.
Consider ignorance fought this day.

Thanks.

I think they are fixed now. These things go into the newsletter in raw form–Ed is still editing them.

Close. Both schools believe that there is one right answer to the question what does this provision mean? The original meaning folks think that one should look to the actual meaning assigned to the provision by those who adopted it–State ratifying conventions and those who selected them. For this, they look to debates, correspondence, and publications that were disseminated at the time. Textualists say one should begin with the text. If the text is clear, any meaning assigned to it is irrelevant. If the text is ambiguous, the textualists look for evidence of what a reasonable legislative or constitution-adopting body would have meant by the words in the statute. It’s about the words–not any subjective understanding or intention. But actual interpretation can be considered evidence of this kind of meaning, especially where better evidence is lacking, at least according to some textualists. And that’s what Scalia talks about in McCreary: Early decisions of government officials as evidence that the clause would not have been understood to create an impermeable wall of separation. He’s saying it’s unreasonable to conclude that politicians who did the things he describes–or at least didn’t object to them–could have meant that the clause created an impermeable wall between church and state.

Looks like that part got cut. :smiley: Here’s what Scalia says about it.

http://www.joink.com/homes/users/ninoville/lesserevil.asp

He also says:

*Id. *

I think I know the answer to this, but I want to review a few things before I try to respond.

He still hasn’t got them all.

“or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion”
And a supplementary question. If “Neither a state nor the Federal Government can… pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another.” then how can churches get special tax breaks etc.? Surely this is a law which aids all religions.

Thanks, I passed it on to Ed.

A line of cases begining with Walz v. Tax Comm’n holds that providing religious organizations isn’t an establishment. According to Justice Burger:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=397&invol=664

Burger gets credited with creating the entaglement prong ofthe Lemon test:

Finally, he tied everything up by considering history:

Here is a long series of articles from the New York Times that discusses some of the issues:

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=23016&con=4&sec=59

Great column! As to the Framers’ views on religious freedom, I would add this timeless comment from George Washington’s letter to the Touro Synagogue, Newport, Rhode Island, August 17, 1790:

“…The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support…”

Papers of George Washington: Presidential Series, Vol. 6, pp. 284-286 (University of Virginia Press, 1996)

Boy, the writer of the original question was sure ignorant.

Ignorance well fought there.

So, unfortunately, are many judges and justices who write decisions involving it. <sigh> :o

Great Job, Gfactor! I’ll drop by with comments later; the weekend has been rough for some weird, green reason… :stuck_out_tongue:

Ok. This is a trick question, really. :smiley: It *didn’t * take so long compared to other parts . . . most of them took a long time.

The First Amendment, in general was first applied to the states in 1925, but the Court didn’t address the religion clauses until the 40s. The court didn’t invalidate a state blasphemy law until 1952. Levy says that the last blasphemy *prosecution * in the U.S. was in 1968. Even so, the First Amendment was really first one to be incorporated (bits and pieces of a few other amendments came first.)

As recently as 1949, the high court announced, in Wolf v. Colorado that “in a prosecution in a State court for a State crime the Fourteenth Amendment does *not * forbid the admission of evidence obtained by an unreasonable search and seizure.” http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=338&invol=25 (Empasis added.)

The Fourth and Fifth Amendments, in general didn’t get applied to the states until the 1960s.

The excessive fines clause was only applied explicitly to the states in 2001.

Here’s a chart: Incorporation of the Bill of Rights - Wikipedia

Should be * providing exemptions for religious organizations from neutral legal requirements * isn’t an establishment.

Gfactor–let me add to the chorus of praise. A very thorough, interesting, and exhaustively researched piece. Bravo! (And it just confirms my pessimistic opinion that it is damn near impossible to have an informed opinion on most topics, since doing so requires the possession of so much information.)

Anyhow, I was wondering if you know of a book or other work that, for the literate layperson, lays out the various positions on constitutional interpretation and the evidence/arguments for and against each. I don’t feel like I can responsibly hold opinions on how the various amendments should be read unless I know whether to endorse originalism, constructionism, the Living Constitution view, etc. I would be grateful, if you know of such a work, if you could recommend a title.

I don’t know whether to indulge my jealousy for GFactor’s awesome piece of research and reporting by stewing silently or announcing it publicly.

Aw, hell.

:smiley:

Great work.

Ok, as far as breaking down the various schools, I find William Eskridge’s work to be most helpful. There are a few books, and each one covers the material differently–and covers a slightly different group of theories (just to make it a bit more fun):

Constitutional Law: Themes for the Constitution’s Third Century: http://www.amazon.com/Constitutional-Law-Constitutions-American-Casebook/dp/031414353X/ref=sr_1_3/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174309154&sr=1-3 has a very good discussion of most of the theories of constitutional interpretation.

But his book: Legislation and Statutory Interpretation: http://www.amazon.com/Legislation-Statutory-Interpretation-Concepts-Insights/dp/1566627982/ref=sr_1_4/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174309154&sr=1-4 covers interpretive theory more thoroughly and also has a great discussion of legislation and representation theory, more generally. I started reading this one, but stopped when I realized it wasn’t on point for the way the report was going. Now that I’m done doing focused research for this report, I’ll probably go back and finish this one.

Dynamic Statutory Interpretation http://www.amazon.com/Dynamic-Statutory-Interpretation-William-Eskridge/dp/0674218787/ref=sr_1_10/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174309154&sr=1-10 also has a good rundown of the theories.

The last two deal expressly with statutory interpretation, as opposed to constitutional interpretation, but most of the theories cross over or get used in constitutional interpretation, too.

If you want expositions of theories by their proponents, Scalia’s book: A Matter of Interpretation: Federal Courts and the Law: http://www.amazon.com/Matter-Interpretation-Federal-Courts-University/dp/0691004005/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174310208&sr=1-1 is probably the best current explanation of textualism. It’s not too long, and Scalia is a good writer. You can read an online version called the Tanner lectures, but you’ll miss criticism from Ronald Dworkin, Mary Ann Glendon, Lawrence Tribe, and Gordon Wood and Scalia’s responses to them.

As far as earlier originalism, Originalism: The Lesser Evil: http://www.joink.com/homes/users/ninoville/lesserevil.asp is a good start. And for a very good collection of the important essays on the originalism debate, Interpreting The Constitution: The Debate Over Original Intent: http://www.amazon.com/Interpreting-Constitution-Debate-Original-Intent/dp/1555530796/ref=sr_1_3/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174310581&sr=1-3

It’s a bit tougher to find an easy explanation of the case for non-originalist theories.

Brennan, William, “The Constitution of the United States: Contemporary Ratification” reprinted at 25 South Texas Law Review 433 (1986) also in the Rakove book and sometimes available online is the classic

A current, but very complicated explanation is Ronald Dworkin, Freedom’s Law: The Moral Reading of the American Constitution: http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Law-Reading-American-Constitution/dp/0674319273/ref=sr_1_9/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174311194&sr=1-9 (just the introductory essay).

Of course, a complete understanding of the broader theories would require a review of:

Hart, The Concept of Law: http://www.amazon.com/Concept-Law-Clarendon/dp/0198761236 (legal positivisim)

Hart & Sacks’ The Legal Process: Basic Problems in the Making and Application of Law: http://www.amazon.com/Hart-Sacks-Legal-Process-Application/dp/1566622360/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174311450&sr=1-1 (a book that was much discussed, but never actually published until very recently. Nevertheless, it’s influence on modern legal thinking is substantial).

Fuller, The Morality of Law: http://www.amazon.com/Morality-Law-Revised-Storrs-Lectures/dp/0300010702/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174311901&sr=1-1 (the natural law classic)

Llewellyn, Bramble Bush: On Our Law and Its Study: http://www.amazon.com/Bramble-Bush-Our-Law-Study/dp/0379000733/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174311525&sr=1-2 (legal realism)

Kelman, A Guide to Critical Legal Studies: http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Critical-Legal-Studies/dp/0674367561/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-5741627-2438207?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174311607&sr=1-2 (A very tough read, but, sadly, one of the best works on the CLS movement).

Thanks Bricker.

What was so ignorant about the question?

RR

Technically, he didn’t say the question was ignorant–only its author.

I don’t know specifically what **Dan Norder ** had in mind, but I’d say that describing a nonexistent clause and then making claims about its clear purpose doesn’t show him in the best possible light. His main (mostly implied) question (Why was the establishment clause included in the Bill of Rights, what is it meant to prohibit, and how did we get to the current state of confusion?) is a smart one. :smiley: