You are in love with high school economics. The world is far more complicated and under a lot more control. The supply and demand idea is exactly what corps wish to control. The oil companies have. They can do whatever they want and you will never see it. Take the blinders off. The cartel dropped prices a few years ago to punish Venezuela. They were going to push for lower prices. Their problem is their oil is a dirtier and requires more refining. With moderate;ly hogh prices the recovery is profitable. The oil cartel dropped the prices low and practically destroyed th Venezuealan economy. The lesson was learned.
Now the South Americans are feeling strong again. They are talking of nationalizing the oil. Why, if the oil people are benign and just flowing with the old supply and demand ,would they do it. Nothing would change.
Do you ever question yourself.? I was taught the old supply and demand thing in high school. In college it was modified . Life and reading have shown how much that the concept has been rendered quaint. Corporations do not want to float. They want to control. Alsmost nobody does it as well as the oil companies.
Well, that was obviously a waste of time on my part. Like a duck sheds water, you are seemingly adapted to shedding knowledge and then spewing out uncited assertions of your own opinion as if its fact. In love with ‘high school economics’, ehe? Perhaps had you not (obviously) slept through your own ‘high school economics’ we could actually have a rational discussion. Or maybe not.
In any case as you are immune from anything resembling the facts I don’t see any point in continueing this discussion at this time. Its akin to an Evolution debate where someone is saying all those ‘fake’ fossils are actually just plants by the scientists…how do you get through to someone who is militantly opposed to learning something or even using logic? Answer: You can’t.
C’est la vie…
-XT
OK, I’ll bet on the following: the average U.S. price of regular unleaded gasoline will not reach $4.00/gallon by Memorial Day.
Any takers?
If someone takes you up on this I want a piece of the action. There is not a hope in hell that the average price in the US will reach $4/gallon by Memorial Day…hell, I’d be willing to bet the average won’t be there on LABOR Day! Maybe Memorial Day of next year we will be hovering around that price…but then again, maybe we’ll still be at $3/gallon then as well (I bought gas this morning for $2.80/gallon…just as an FYI).
-XT
Premium at $3.45 . Are we deliberately choosing the low priced spread to determine.
Pop over to the NYMEX, I suspect there are a bunch of guys and gals willing to make some bets with you. Admittedly they only trade in 42,000 gal batches but some option probably would only set you back a couple of time periods of SDMB subscription fees.
Now, thanks to gonzomax, our ignorance has been fought and we know they are all operating under the delusions that supply and demand is a valid economic theory we should be able to make a killing. Although all these people buying and selling are not all the oil companies, there are whole bunch of merchant banks, investment types in there as well, I guess they are are all in on the scam as well and high gasoline prices help their profits to, or are they just doing it as a favor to big oil?
But wait, the companies involved are not just US companies, there are a whole lot of international companies involved in that trading, well maybe they like helping out big oil as well, and perhaps they want to help influence the US elections by dropping the prices as well. Man this conspiracy runs deep.
Ahh no, look over there, there are exchanges in Europe, Asia, Russia, Middle East, damnit everywhere. Well there must all be in cahoots as well, because if the US market operated independently, everyone else would make a fortune due to the artificial price difference. As that has not happened I guess they are all in on the act to prop up US oil companies and help Bush co win again.
Too late for the Bushies. The neocons shot their wad. Did you EVER hear of International Corporations. I never said it was US companies.I am well aware of how they control the process from drilling and exploration to the pump. But thanks for another lesson in high school economics.
It’s pretty clear from everything you post here that this isn’t true. You don’t have much knowledge on how the energy sector works and you seem determined to dismiss any attempts to educate you.
If only you’d actually learn something from the lesson. . .
Then please explain it to us very very slowly, step by step, with details.
Thanks ever so.
You should have trusted me on the looking foolish thingy… :smack:
-XT
This thread has been beaten to death. Long ago I posted this information and you just go back and read. It will give you time to digest and perhaps toss off your programming.
The only links you ever posted were by rabid left-wing groups denouncing corporations like Enron. Most of your links never even mentioned oil companies, in fact. You never offered a factual analysis to back up any of your claims – you simply claimed corporations were evil.
Again, you seem to think you know so much on this issue. Please explain how corporations manipulate prices. We have provided a variety of facts and citations. You have provided nothing except garbled variations on the theme of “supply and demand is a sham; corporations are evil!”
No, you posted a bunch of links to opinion pieces that were unrelated. I have not seen one that explains or is evidence of how they control the steps from exploration to dispenser.
FFS Renob, can you please stop posting my thoughts 2 minutes before I do, are you looking at my keyboard? (checks around in a paranoid fashion) 
OTOH maybe I should try reformatting my brain so I can bang out one sentence in less than 10 minutes.
You model doesn’t make sense. If the price of buying raw materials goes up X dollars, then it makes sense to raise the price of the finished product by X dollars, not by the percentage of increase of the raw materials. To reason that one must raise the price of one’s goods by 118%, citing increased costs of production, even though this is far more than the true increased costs, is simply raw profiteering.
I agree with you that investors like to invest in profitable companies - that’s almost a truism, and I don’t expect corporations to do anything other than what is in their own best interest, but to say this is in any way based on the principles of supply and demand in a free market is false, in my opinion. Were there true competition in existence, and let’s say for example that Exxon decided to double its price based on a doubling of the price of crude oil - then Chevron, for example, could increase their prices by only the amount of increased costs, still make a profit, and severely undercut Exxon in the marketplace. In a truly free market, competition prevents price-gouging. This is not happening.
People were making these exact same “supply and demand” arguments to defend the energy companies when they were pulling all their shenanigans. When the matter finally came to a head, it was obvious that the market was anything but free.
You wont. There is nothing that can make you question your jejune beliefs. We all are told how great our system is when we are growing up. Can you imagine that in face of tons of evidence some begin to wonder. The concept is fine ,but what it has evolved onto is something different. If you argue about the supply and demand as being the major force in econ ,you reject all the evidence in front of your face.
Pete Seger
What did you learn in school today;
I learned politicians are our friends thats why we elect them again and again
We fought in Germany and in France and someday I might get my chance.
Toss off the platitudes and question your beliefs. It is not too late for you.
This makes no sense. You say my reasoning that record profits are evidence of the price increase being unjustified is faulty, then cite other reasons for high prices. Are you talking about government policies? If you are arguing that the government is responsible for prices going up, that would mean less profit for the oil companies, not more. Sorry, but your argument falls flat.
I didn’t say it was evil; I said it wasn’t indicative of a free market.
And I never said companies aren’t supposed to make a profit; I only questioned the fact that certain companies are making record profits AT THE SAME TIME that they are charging record prices.
That’s just silly. You can’t stop buying petroleum products; they’re essential. That’s why they are able to get away with what they’re doing.
If you’re not contending that the government is responsible for the price run-up, then please stop bringing it up, as it is irrelevant to my point.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/51218/
The hits just keep on coming. They got us in a war for crying out loud. How do you see them as benign.
I know you can always convince yourselves it is ok. But it must be getting harder.
I dunno - the nonmember margin requirements for New York Harbor RBOB Gasoline were over $7000. A wee bit steep for me, thanks.