2 baseball questions...

Factual Questions
1
  1. I know that a batter can attempt to advance to 1st base if the catcher drops the ball on a 3rd strike, assuming that the base isn’t already occupied. But what about with a 3 ball, 2 strike count and 2 outs? At that point, the runner at 1st is automatically running so I think that the batter should be allowed to try to advance if the catcher drops it. Basically, what are the rules concerning a dropped 3rd strike with runner(s) on base?
  2. A foul tip with 2 strikes can be caught by the catcher for a strikeout. When this happens with less than 2 outs, is a runner attempting to steal allowed to still take the base? It seems that if the batter has been struck out, the runner attempting to steal should be allowed to take the base. But then, in some instances, it might be advantageous for the catcher to drop the foul tip 3rd strike.

Example: Bottom of the 9th, tie score, a very speedy runner is at first base with no outs. The batter has 2 strikes. The runner at 1st attempts to steal 2nd and gets a great jump on the pitch (meaning that he’ll easily steal 2nd). The batter swings and tip the ball into the catcher’s glove. The catching thinks fast and drops the ball. Why? To prevent the runner at 1st from taking 2nd and putting the winning run in scoring position. By dropping the ball, the catcher keeps the double play intact, and keeps the fast runner out of scoring position. The pitcher can now once again try to strike out the batter or get an out another way without a man in scoring position.

So, what’s the rule and does it make sense?

2

  1. The rule is as you state. The base is technically not open so the batter cannot take it on a dropped strike even if all logic states that the runner on first will be moving.

  2. The “ticked” third strike is treated like a foul fly ball. If it is caught by the catcher, the runner must return to the base and “tag up” before he can head to the next base. If it is not caught, it is a foul ball, on which he cannot advance.

3
  1. Sorry, TV time, but you missed 'em both.

The batter can ALWAYS take first on a dropped third strike with two outs, whether or not the base is occupied. With less than two outs and first occupied he cannot take first, but once there’s two out, he can. Please refer to Rule 6.09(b):

  1. Again, this is not correct. A CAUGHT FOUL TIP IS NOT A FOUL BALL! A runner stealing on a foul tip may take the base at his own risk on any caught foul tip. If the ball is tipped and NOT caught, it’s a foul ball, but if it is caught, it’s just like an ordinary swing-and-miss.

Note that to be considered a “foul tip” the ball must make contact with the bat and proceed directly into the catcher’s glove without delay or striking anything else.

Please refer to Rule 2.00, Definition, “Foul Tip.”:

4

So much for my batting average. Back to the minors for me.

5

Thanks RickJay. Nice try, TV Time.

6

Don’t fret; I’ve seen umpires not know this stuff. (The foul tip rule is sort of counterintuitive.)

The rules of baseball have a lot of weird idiosynchracies in them. Some other commonly misunderstood ones are:

  1. "Breaking The Wrists" and “Crossing The Plane” are not strikes. You will often hear it said - I did when I was a kid, anyway - that a batter has legally taken a wing once he “Breaks his wrists,” e.g. rolls them towards the pitcher on the swing. More recently, you will hear it said that a swing takes place when the bat crosses a plane parallel to the front of the plate, or some such thing.

In fact, neither rule exists. A swing takes place simply when, in the judgement of the umpire, the batter has made an effort to strike the ball.

  1. Ties don’t go to the runner. There’s no such thing in the rules as a “tie.” Either the runner got there first, or the ball got there first.

  2. Base advancement on balls thrown out of play. This is nearly impossible to keep straight, but the comon misconception is that you always get two bases from where you are.

In fact, this is not always the case. if the ball is thrown out of play by an infielder on the first play - e.g. grounder to Chuck Knoblauch and he heaves it into the tenth row - the batter and runners get two bases from where they started, which means the batter goes to second. The batter does NOT get to go to third if he’d already reached first.

However, if the throw is NOT the first play, then the runners DO get two bases from where they are at the time the throw is made. So if it’s a grounder to short, tossed to second for a force out, and then Chuck heaves it to the hot dog vendor, the batter can be awarded THIRD base if he has reached first before Chuck threw his bomb. Weird, huh? (Rule 7.05(g))

  1. Runners are not always out when hit by a batted ball, nor are they always safe if the ball hits them while they’re on a base. It is an axiom of baseball that if you’re the runner and you get hit by the ball, you’re out. You see major leaguers leaping over grounders to avoid this fate.

However, these are not always the case. A runner struck by a ball in fair territory is NOT called out if the ball had already gotten past the fielder. So if you have a drawn-in infield looking to cut the run off at the plate, and the ball gets by the shortstop and THEN hits a runner, there is no call; the runner can continue and the ball is in play (Rule 5.08(f)) This would also apply if the ball is touched by the pitcher on its way up the middle; once touched, a runner should NOT be called out if it strikes him. (Rule 7.08(f)) Obviously, this all assumes the runner doesn’t kick the ball on purpose or something.

Also, standing on a base does NOT save a runner from being called out. If the ball strikes the runner in fair territory, the runner is out, even if he is standing on a base. For some reason, however, there is an exception; the runner is not out if touched by an infield fly. (Rule 7.08(f))

7

Why would Chuck chuck the ball if the batter already reached lst base?

8

WAG - the spirit of the rule seems to be the defense gets one chance to field a ball and make an out without interferance from a runner. With the infield fly, the defense has already made their first out on the play - the powers that be wanna make them earn the second one.

9

If that’s the case (and one of my cardinal rules is “Don’t start a land war in Asia” . . . er, “Don’t doubt RickJay on baseball questions”), it’s misunderstood up to the highest levels of announcers, including former players. Whenever a batter checks his swing, the TV shot always shows the view from above to see if the bat crossed the front of the plate. And I can’t even tell you how many times over the years I heard Indians radio announcer Herb Score say, “Did he go around? Yes, he did, says the umpire at first base.”

Then again, that idiot Bob Costas always says “Automatic” when a batter has a strike called after taking a pitcher 3-0. As if nobody has ever walked on four straight pitches or something.

10

The official rules of baseball have no definition of a “swing”. It is pretty much all up to the individual umpire. How he decides what is a swing and what isn’t probably depends upon which of the two umpire schools he attended.

What you don’t see happen too often is when there is a dropped third strike with the bases loaded and two outs is the catcher just stepping on home plate with the ball in hand.

11

I think that it is analogous to the Talmud, as Zev would appreciate, or case law, as Rick would appreciate. The interpretation of what is a swing is well established as being a breaking of the wrist or extension past the plane of the plate. I believe it is purposely vague to take care of the bunting situation. When one bunts, he does not break his wrist or necessarily extend his bat past the plane of the plate. So if a batter starts to bunt, but changes his mind, at what point did he attempt to bunt (i.e., “swing”)? That is purely a judgment call.

12

RickJay,
2 points:

  1. I dont think the runner out rules says anything about the runner kicking the ball after it gets by the infielders. I think the umpire would have to use a different rule about actions contrary to the nature of the game.(like taunting, slugging the catcher with the bat,…)

  2. the runner is safe on the base if he is hit by the hit ball.

  3. the infielder must make an attempt to field the ball before it is ok for the runner to be hit. else he is out.

a question:
a ball is tipped real high and dropped by the catcher. the ball would have hit the plate if the catcher had not touched it. is it a live ball or foul?

13

Having poked around the rulebook, I agree with RickJay on this one. As he said, it’s a common misconception that touching a base makes a runner immune in this situation.

Rule 7 of the MLB rulebook is all in one clumsily formatted page, but Rule 7.08(f) is the relevant one here. It reads:

According to this, the only time touching a base gives any protection is on an Infield Fly. Aside from that, I read it to mean that he’s out if he gets plugged by a line drive while standing on first.

14

If a ball is tipped high, it’s not a foul tip, it’s just a foul ball. A foul tip has to go straight back to the catcher. It’s analgous to a let serve in tennis.

So in the situation described above, if the ball is hit in the air very high and the catcher touches the ball, it is a fair ball if he touches it in fair territory and a foul ball if it is in foul territory. The home plate umpire has to guess where the ball in the air is relative to fair territory.

Normally in the situation described above, it would be advantageous for the catcher to try catch the ball while it is still in fair territory as the batter will be out easily and any runner on base will likely not be advancing.

15

In such a case the runner AND the batter/runner would be called out on deliberate interference with a ball in play. INTENTIONAL interference of this sort means that both the runner AND the batter are called out. Please refer to rule 7.09(g).

You’re right, of course, in that there’s an element of unsportsmanlike conduct in kicking the ball away, too, but 7.09(g) is the rule to be applied. If it’s egregious enough, the player can be ejected for making a travesty of the game.

As BobT has pointed out, this is not a foul tip at all. However, home plate is in fair territory, IIRC, so a ball that would land on the plate is a fair ball.

16

Same reason he would throw it into the stands in the first place. I’ll leave that question as an exercise for the reader. :slight_smile: