2 to 1 They'll Never Let Me Do It

There are two types of gambling:
Type I Gambling: games of chance in which, over many plays, the odds favor no particular participant.
Type II Gambling: games of chance in which, over many plays, the odds favor one of the participants.

[In the following, all gambles are assumed to be fair, with no party cheating]
Type I includes things like poker, betting on the horses, and betting on sporting events. In poker, for instance, I may draw a better hand than you in some particular game, but over many games we will draw that particular hand with equal frequency. More broadly, the situation in which I have one specific hand and you have another specific hand will occur no more frequently than the situation where the hands are reversed. So if we play a lot of poker, over the course of time differences in our winnings will be a measure of some actual skill - either the reading of faces or (and I think this is the point of poker) the skill of interacting with chance events themselves. Knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em kind of thing. Sporting events and horse races are the same. Assuming there is no hidden information available to the bookies but not the bettors, these gambles will, over time, be a measure of the skill of the bettors against the skill of the bookies. The bookies are really good, but there is nothing in principle that says some Joe at the track can’t be better. If any type of gambling should be legal it is Type I.

In Type II gambling on the other hand, you can’t win over many plays. The best you can do is be ahead for the moment. All casino games are of this type, Roulette, BlackJack, Craps, the Slots, etc. [Aside: No one has found a way to make a casino game into a Type I game, but a mathematician did once figure out a way to make BlackJack a Type II game favoring the player, through card counting. The casinos caught on right quick and adapted by using multiple decks].

Type II games are simple tools for taking money out of one person’s pocket and putting it in another’s. They prey on some weakness of the human soul that a psychologist could explain better than I; gamblers are not just simply suckers - there really is something about the human makeup that draws people into this activity to their own detriment, even though they often KNOW at the time it is to their detriment (and often that of their families). The rationalization mechanisms kick in. A whole slew of feelings are aroused, similar to those experienced by drug addicts refusing to acknowledge that they have a problem. It is a vice at least as clearly as drugs are, and much more clearly, IMO, than sex. If any type of gambling should be illegal it is Type II games.

Yet we have the opposite situation. Type I games are outlawed most places, while Type II games have sprung up in casinos all over the country in the past decade. It is seen as quick fix easy money for the communities that host the casinos.

The crucial point is this: Type II gambles, despite being rather obvious con games, with demonstrably negative social ramifications, are always justified the same way: The House Is Deserving.

You would think the nation’s churches would take a stand against something like this type of gambling, but instead they use Type II games themselves to raise money. Is it wrong? How can it be when the proceeds benefit the church? In other words, The House Is Deserving.

The State Lotteries have been described as a tax on the foolish poor. They are even more obviously Type II games than those in the casinos, with far worse odds. Yet the money goes to help the elderly, or prop up the mass transit system. The State is the beneficiary, and that means all of us, so how can it be wrong? The House Is Deserving.

American Indians have moved into the casino business. Just what The Nations need to have their humanity finally recognized by the larger society; just what they need to instill their youth with a sense of self-respect after the stomping their culture has taken; do something productive! But of course, it’s okay if Indians run these con games because after all, we’ve treated them badly and owe them so much: The House Is Deserving.

The not-so-subtle implication here is that the house is more deserving of our consideration than their victims.

More deserving, too, than the broader societal detriment gambling causes. Remember when the belief was that you got rich in America by being smart, industrious, and educated? (never mind whether it was completely true or not; people believed it, and that made some of them go out and do it). How much has the view changed, that now the way to success is that one lucky ticket. Riches are the result of random, chance events - the evidence is before us, again and again. Hell, the government advertises the fact. [ul]It’s not in your control[/ul], it’s a matter of luck. If you weren’t born an heir, you better just start buying lotto tickets.

Well, damn it, I’m deserving too. Why can’t I open a casino - excuse me, a “gaming establishment” - and start fleecing the sheep, uh, er, entertaining the tourists? I’ll bring jobs to the community. I’ll generate revenues for the city!

But apparently I’m not sufficiently deserving to be able to prey on my fellows’ character weaknesses like the church, the state, and beleaguered minorities. They’ll never let me do it.

It’s a decent rant, but where’s the debate?

APB, I believe you are wrong about the races.

The “vig” will simply wear you down, no matter how good a handicapper you are. The track takes 20% off the top. Casino blackjack, on the other hand, works on less than 5%, assuming you play correctly.

Over the long haul, the track will kick your ass.

You’re right about poker. In a fair game, skill will eventually overtake luck.

Freedom, the debate will be about someone knowing someone who’s brother is a friend of a trainer’s sister who wins consistently.

I love gambling and have been to Vegas 3 times, but I have no illussions. It’s a rigged game. I don’t mean they’re cheating. They don’t have to. The fix is built into the games. And that’s okay with me. The poor dears have to eke out a living too.

Oops, I also meant to say in my post:

“Lotteries are a tax on people who are lousy at math.”


I don’t have to do drugs to mess up my head. I went to Catholic school.

I saw Bellini’s I Puritani here in DC. (It should come as no surprise to fans of the Bricker Challenge threads that I’m an opera fan!) :slight_smile:

Two tickets, orchestra center, cost me about $200. Apart from the joy of hearing Elvira’s insanity in “Qui la voce sua soave,” I ended up with not a dime of that $200 left in my pocket. Far from feeling cheated, however, I enjoyed the good opera and good company of the evening, and felt it worthwhile.

Now, when I leave Atlantic City, it is with a similar feeling of having been entertained. Admittedly, no one sings… but there is a peace and pattern in playing blackjack that I find compelling, relaxing, and fun.

Sometimes I leave, as with the opera, without any of my original stake. But sometimes I leave with half of it – and sometimes I leave with more than I started with!

I guess I’m suggesting that rather than approaching Type II gambling (as defined above) as an economic proposition, the appropriate analytical model is entertainment.

  • Rick

A very well-stated OP, I think.

I have always been dead set against lotteries, or any other version of state-sponsored gambling. This is not a moral stance against gambling; I enjoy poker very much, and even the occasissional blackjack game. As mentioned in the previous post, the model in this case is entertainment.

The model for government lotteries is most decidedly not entertainment. Oh, they might couch it as such with their TV and radio commercials, but in reality, it is a ruse that tries to compensate for manifest fiscal irresponsibility. A government that says it can’t stay within a budget without the money pouring in from the lottery coffers is a government that seriously needs to re-evaluate how it spends its money.

So, I agree with the OP in that it seems the rationalization is that the state is a deserving entity. I guess it then stands to follow that the poor shlupps who fill those lottery coffers are decidedly undeserving. The rationalization certainly can’t be fairness or concern for the citizens. It is a rigged game (Type II definition above); there is a 100% chance that a state lottery will help impoverish more people than it will help enrich. How legislators can say they care about the citizenry while running a rigged game designed to separate people (especially poor people) from their money is to me the height of hypocrisy.

Should the government be in the business of dangling a 10 million dollar carrot in front of the nose of someone who can’t afford to pay the rent? Where’s the compassion in that? To me, that is just cruel.

I can hear it now: “So what? The casinos do the same thing.” Well, my point is that a casino (or track, or bingo parlor, etc…) should be a private venture. Even the worst casino game offers much better odds than a lottery. IMO, the government should stay out of gambling altogether (except for the inevitable taxes, of course). Leave it to Harrah’s or Binion’s.

stupid codes :mad:

Yes, we need more laws to protect people from themselves. I know if I got within five miles of a gaming establishment I’d probably gamble my kids College education away. I’m just not responsible for my own actions.
Every time I fill up my car with gas there had better be one of those “No Smoking Gasoline is highly inflammable” signs right above the pump or I’m liable to forget and light up a smoke. Then I’d sue!

There had better be a sign over those steps in doorways telling me to “Step Up” because I don’t know how to work those things without help. And I’d sue.

It’s a good thing my food stamps can’t buy everything or I’d just blow it all on booze. And, thanks for those food stamps by the way because I can’t take care of myself. I’m not responsible and the government had better take care of me.

So I agree, they better do something about these casinos before I get close. I can’t possibly take care of myself. There’s a whole lot more like me out there, and I feel lucky!

The reason Type II is legal and Type I is not (in general) is because of taxation and cheating. There must be some kind of profit motive for engaging in gambling activities. If the odds are equal, then the only way to profit consistantly is to cheat. Horse racing / dog racing are legal in many states, and as stated before, the house makes it’s money by taking x% off the top before calculating the odds of payout. Poker and sports betting are legal in Vegas, again, the house takes it’s cut off the top. If you’re coming to my place to play $5 ante poker, you’re probably not willing to give me $10 out of every pot. I may be a good poker player, but a couple of nights of bad luck, and I’m out of business. I need a reasonable guarantee of profits to stay in business, so either I get a cut off the top, or I cheat.


“The large print givith, and the small print taketh away.”
Tom Waites, “Step Right Up”

Two points: First, I think the track is a type I, not type II, because neither you nor the house has any influence upon the game. “Skill” is involved only to the extent that both you and the house can research the history of the horses and riders, and come to an educated guess about who will win. But that is a very far cry from the skills used in a poker game. Skill at bluffing, and hold/fold decisions are critical there, and weigh heavily upon who will leave the table with more money. With the horses, you just make your bet, and then you’re a mere spectator.

This leads me to point number two. Your mantra that “The House Is Deserving” is very well taken, but there is another factor at work as well: “The House Has To Make A Profit, Or Else It Will Go Out Of Business.” Allowing games of skill would be like suicide. A church or government which ran a skill game would be shooting itself in the foot, and if the government allowed casinos to have skill games they’d be inviting the unemployment lists to grow. (Yeah, I know, allowing Type II games is also an invitation for unemployment to grow, but I think it’s to a lesser degree.)

What’s the problem with taking advantage of stupid people? We’ve essentially institutionalized it in this country, from Barnum to Doc Smith’s Miracle Tonic to Ronco to Lotteries. (You think the Backstreet Boys are relying on the intellignece of their fans? What about Rodman? Regis?)

I’ll give you the answer, because I’m just that great kinda guy. The reason we shouldn’t take fiscal advantage of idiots is a purely selfish one:

We have a lottery.
Stupid Person spends all of Stupid Person’s money on the lottery.
Stupid Person is broke.
Stupid Person goes on welfare. Or tries to mug someone.
Either way, I have to pay for it.
Of course, it sometimes works out a little better:

SP plugs all SP’s money into a slot machine.
SP is broke.
SP can’t afford to eat well.
SP dies.
BOOM! (as Madden would say) Average human intelligence goes up a fraction. And the survivors have to pay funeral expenses, not me. Yay!

The former happens much more often than the latter. So sadly, I can’t support taking full advantage of SP’s stupidity. But God! it’s just so easy sometimes.

-andros-

APB9999 wrote:

Actually, it’s not the government that advertises the State Lotteries, it’s the private corporations that have the monopoly within that State to run that State’s Lottery.

You can. If you live in Nevada.


The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.