2008 Baseball HOF

The Game Room
1

We had a thread on this about a month ago.

And the results are in

Gossage goes in alone. Rice just missed (by 17 votes) and has one year left.
Dawson was 49 votes short.

Raines was the only first year eligible player who will stay on the ballot.

McGwire got 128 votes (23.5%), exact same number as last year.

Gossage got a surprisingly high number of votes (85.6%). Thought he’d get in this year, but not by much.

I also thought Tim Raines would get more support. Didn’t think he’d get in first ballot, but thought he’d be in the 50% range.

2

I think it sucks that McGwire got more votes than Allan Trammell. Trammell was a World Series MVP, runner up for AL MVP, was definitely one of the guys who started the transformation of shortstops to offensive players–and was incredibly good with the glove.

McGwire hit home runs.

3

[QUOTE=jk1245]
I also thought Tim Raines would get more support. Didn’t think he’d get in first ballot, but thought he’d be in the 50% range.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, wow… 24 percent? I didn’t see that coming.

I figured two or even three “wait listed” guys would get in this year, with Rice and Dawson the most likely to go in with Gossage. I was way off.

4

Way to go Goose! On a side note, Todd Stottlemyre got 1 vote. That voter should lose their privileges immediately!

5

Also, Gossage will be inducted alongside Dick Williams. Two of the best baseball mustaches ever.

6

I’ll repeat what I posted in the other thread. Hooray for Goose.

It really is about time he made it.

He was the only one that I thought would make it. So, I am not really disappointed by anyone else missing.

Jim

7

I’m disappointed that Rice missed it again. I hope he makes it next year, for goodness’ sake.

But good for Goose; he deserves it.

8

[QUOTE=Skammer]
I’m disappointed that Rice missed it again. I hope he makes it next year, for goodness’ sake.

But good for Goose; he deserves it.
[/QUOTE]

That brings up a good point. Are there any big names next year. If it is a strong new class, it diminishes his chance. If it is another weak freshman class, he’ll go in.

From the HOF itself:
2009: Steve Avery, Jay Bell, Mike Bordick, John Burkett, David Cone, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Rickey Henderson, Charles Nagy, Denny Neagle, Jesse Orosco, Dean Palmer, Dan Plesac, Rick Reed, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, Matt Williams, Mike Williams (HOF Weekend will be July 24-27, with Induction Ceremonies on Sunday, July 26)

2010: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, Todd Zeile (HOF Weekend will be July 23-26, with Induction Ceremonies on Sunday, July 25)

2011: Wilson Alvarez, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Mike Hampton, Al Leiter, Tino Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Hideo Nomo, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Benito Santiago, Ugueth Urbina, Larry Walker

2012: Vinny Castilla, Bill Mueller, Brad Radke, Tim Salmon, Ruben Sierra, Bernie Williams, Tim Worrell

9

Rickey Henderson is up next year, for one. The most impressive first-timer after him is probably David Cone, so based on his totals, I think Rice should make it. The others will have to keep waiting, I guess.

10

Goose deserves it, but I’m amazed at the lack of support and continued lack of support, respectively, shown for Raines and Trammell. Both seem like they should be locks to me.

And Blyleven, of course.

11

[QUOTE=Marley23]
Rickey Henderson is up next year, for one.
[/QUOTE]

He is a first ballot easily. No question.

David Cone is unlikely.
Mark Grace is unlikely.
Mo Vaughn is unlikely.

It could be Rice’s chance, going in with the Rickey.

12

If anyone deserves to go in alone, it’s Rickey…

13

If anyone doesn’t deserve to go in, it’s Rice. :slight_smile:

(Have you folks seen his home/road splits? He was average at best outside Fenway.)

14

[QUOTE=Gadarene]
Goose deserves it, but I’m amazed at the lack of support and continued lack of support, respectively, shown for Raines and Trammell. Both seem like they should be locks to me.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think Trammell is anywhere near a lock. The numbers just aren’t there. In fact, looking at these numbers, he doesn’t even look very good.

He played from '77-'96 (with 5 shortened years) and only hit above .300 seven times. He was a six time All-Star (in 19 seasons), and a Gold Glove winner only four times. He never led the league in any major offensive category! So what exactly is the argument for him? You can’t say he was the best at his position for any period longer than maybe a single season. He was second in MVP voting once (hardly an accolade), and he was World Series MVP once. Here are the last three World Series MVPs:

Mike Lowell, David Eckstein, Jermaine Dye.

Clearly not a list that guarantees Hall of Fame status. Trammell isn’t even borderline Hall-worthy.

15

Good for Goose.

I was hoping for Bert Blyleven to finally go over the top this year, and I’m disappointed that Lee Smith continues to get so little support.

16

[QUOTE=EsotericEnigma]
I don’t think Trammell is anywhere near a lock. The numbers just aren’t there. In fact, looking at these numbers, he doesn’t even look very good.

He played from '77-'96 (with 5 shortened years) and only hit above .300 seven times. He was a six time All-Star (in 19 seasons), and a Gold Glove winner only four times. He never led the league in any major offensive category! So what exactly is the argument for him? You can’t say he was the best at his position for any period longer than maybe a single season. He was second in MVP voting once (hardly an accolade), and he was World Series MVP once. Here are the last three World Series MVPs:

Mike Lowell, David Eckstein, Jermaine Dye.

Clearly not a list that guarantees Hall of Fame status. Trammell isn’t even borderline Hall-worthy.
[/QUOTE]

You are making the same error that many voters have made, not adjusting for position (and I am specifically arguing against the “not even borderline” tag). First of all, it is true that he had Yount and Ripken to compete against. Career OPS+:

Yount: 115
Ripken: 112
Trammell: 110

Looking at year to year, from the time that both Trammell and Yount were full time SS, I’d peg the best of the two (three when Ripken comes on board) as:

1978: Yount
1979: Yount
1980: Yount (Trammell’s first good season)
1981: Yount
1982: Yount (MVP)
1983: Yount/Ripken (too close to call, tho Cal won the MVP)
1984: Ripken
1985: Ripken (Yount is now a CF)
1986: Ripken
1987: Trammell
1988: Trammell
1989: Ripken (Yount’'s 2nd MVP, as a CFer)
1990: Trammell
1991: Ripken (his 2nd MVP)
1992: Ripken
1993: Trammell

After that point Alan no longer has any more 400+ AB seasons. Not too bad really, tho I will agree that Cal and Robin are better. The problem is that the SS wing of the HoF has never been just about 3000 hit guys with multiple MVPs, but includes the likes of Luke Appling, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Luis Aparicio, and (not to mention) Phil Rizzuto and Pee Wee Reese. Ripken is the only full time SS with 3,000 hits (Wagner played 3B quite a bit and I already mentioned Yount’s switch). Trammell probably rates about 10th all time on the SS list and fits quite comfortably with the other guys I mentioned above.

If you are a Small Hall type of person you need to make that clear up front.

17

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080105&content_id=5978&vkey=hof_news
Trammel is very close. If you watched him and Lou turn double plays for 19 years ,you would be impressed. They made the pitchers more successful. They won games.

18

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
He is a first ballot easily. No question.

David Cone is unlikely.
Mark Grace is unlikely.
Mo Vaughn is unlikely.

It could be Rice’s chance, going in with the Rickey.
[/QUOTE]

Even ignoring the Mitchell Report, Mo Vaughn isn’t in. Not with a 328 career HR’s and 1620 career hits. I guess the MVP makes it a little closer than it otherwise would be, but even still, no way. The only guy that goes in next year for me is Rickey (including those already on all of the ballot).

As for this year, meh, it was a pretty weak year but I’m happy with just Gossage getting in. My overall opinion of the hall is that it should be a one and done situation (either you get in on the first ballot or you aren’t ever getting in) all this, “well he isn’t a first ballot hall of famer, but he’ll get in eventually” nonsense just doesn’t compute with me. Either you’re a hall of famer or you aren’t?

2010 is a pretty interesting year though…

19

[QUOTE=John DiFool]
You are making the same error that many voters have made, not adjusting for position (and I am specifically arguing against the “not even borderline” tag). First of all, it is true that he had Yount and Ripken to compete against.
[/QUOTE]

I am not making such a mistake, I said specifically that he wasn’t the best at his position for much more than a season at any given time. You exclude the NL, but I think that in cases like these, you have to compare all players at that position, for that time period. With everything you said, it’s fair to say that Trammell was among the top five or so shortstops during his career, but clearly isn’t in the top two. I’m not a “small hall” kind of guy, but I do like maintaining the sanctity of the Hall by including only players who were the best of their peers during their time and deserve to be remembered. Fifty years from now, when I ask someone who the best shortstops of the eighties and nineties were, will Trammell’s name even come up? I think the answer is no. That’s a good indication, to me, if someone is Hall worthy.

[QUOTE=John DiFool]
Career OPS+:
Yount: 115
Ripken: 112
Trammell: 110
[/QUOTE]

In the interest of fairness, I think Larkin deserves to be mentioned here, despite playing in the NL. He has a 116 career OPS+, by the way. There’s at least one other SS that played during this time with a higher career OPS+ than Trammell, for what it’s worth. That makes him at best 5th in that category amongst his peers. Hardly eye-opening.

As for your listing year by year, I can accept your conclusions for the most part. I think it’s debatable that Trammell was the best during '88, but I’ll accept it. He was arguably the best at his position for roughly four years out of his career, and I find it interesting that he happened to be his best during an odd time in which the great players of the 70s and early 80s were winding down, but before the players of the late 80s and early 90s got really started. I think that’s important.

[QUOTE=John DiFool]
After that point Alan no longer has any more 400+ AB seasons. Not too bad really, tho I will agree that Cal and Robin are better. The problem is that the SS wing of the HoF has never been just about 3000 hit guys with multiple MVPs, but includes the likes of Luke Appling, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Luis Aparicio, and (not to mention) Phil Rizzuto and Pee Wee Reese. Ripken is the only full time SS with 3,000 hits (Wagner played 3B quite a bit and I already mentioned Yount’s switch). Trammell probably rates about 10th all time on the SS list and fits quite comfortably with the other guys I mentioned above.
[/QUOTE]

There isn’t a single possible way Trammell rates in the top 10 of his position all time, especially not with the current crop of shortstops in the league. I understand that the Hall isn’t about hitting primarily, and that players, especially shortstops, are judged by other qualities. But Trammell isn’t even memorable for those other qualities. Ozzie Smith was a better fielder. Several others were better runners. Others had more power. This goes on and on. For someone to be in the Hall, don’t they have to be the best at something?
Again, not a “small Hall” type of person, but I want to make it so that the Hall is reserved for the very best, not every player who was good. It’s said often, and I believe it myself (though I find it annoying); it’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good.

Essentially this boils down to a fundamental difference in opinion. Is the Hall reserved for the top x players of an era, from a position? Or is it reserved for the BEST of an era, from a position? Either way, I don’t think Trammell is even close to a lock. I’ll surrender that he is borderline, but that’s at best. And his case becomes worse and worse as the current shortstops start retiring.

20

Given the way the position breakdown works for the HoF (count the 3B) I’d say it has to be ‘best of the era’ and not by position.

2009:
Steve Avery - No
Jay Bell - No
Mike Bordick - No
John Burkett - No
David Cone - Maybe
Ron Gant - No
Mark Grace - No
Rickey Henderson - Yes
Charles Nagy - No
Denny Neagle - No
Jesse Orosco - No
Dean Palmer - No
Dan Plesac - No
Rick Reed - No
Greg Vaughn - No
Mo Vaughn - No
Matt Williams - No
Mike Williams - No

2010:
Roberto Alomar - Maybe
Kevin Appier - No
Andy Ashby - No
Ellis Burks - No
Andres Galarraga - No
Pat Hentgen - No
Mike Jackson - No
Eric Karros - No
Ray Lankford - No
Barry Larkin - Maybe
Edgar Martinez - Maybe
Fred McGriff - Maybe (Best case of the year)
Shane Reynolds - No
Robin Ventura - No
Todd Zeile - No

After that the only lock to me looks like Bagwell.

Oh, and FREE THE BLYLEVEN ONE!