as I said the league did not care about testing because they wanted more fans to come back after the 94 strike. Like somebody once said , singles hitters don’t sell tickets. HR hitters do.
I realize now I didn’t really provide a lot of baseline info or links in my OP.
Bonds
Clemens
Halladay
Kent
Martinez
Mussina
Rivera
Ramirez
Rolen
Schilling
and…
Lee Smith
Orel Hershiser
I know this would be duplicative but, if anybody wants it, I can submit another thread on this topic with a poll listing all the eligible players for the HOF. Then this thread can be combined with the other.
Sure, go ahead and I’ll combine them.
Sorry about the misfire but here’s the poll for this year’s crop of HOF candidates. Pick up to ten and explain why if you want.
I cast just one vote, for Mariano Rivera. Some of the other guys on that list would get in based on just the numbers but have other significant issues. On the steroids list are Bonds, Sosa, and Clemens. There’s also a few guys who should probably be in based on their numbers but have non-baseball related issues. At the top of that list is Curt Schilling. Most of the other guys on that list are either borderline or clearly shouldn’t be in (Ted Lilly?).
BTW, I know there’s already a thread on this topic but the poll mechanism wasn’t set up. I started this new HOF with a poll so it can be merged with the previous one.
The broken poll thread was deleted, and the other HOF thread merged with this one, at NDP’s request.
What about Roy Halladay & Moose at least?
**Also, who the heck didn’t vote for Mariano and could you please explain why? **
The SDMB has typically been pretty stingy with HOF voting, but Mariano and Halladay are in real good shape. And Mussina is right at 75% at the moment, too.
Crap, I meant to vote for Walker this time around.
Here’s an interesting Larry Walker factoid: in his MVP year, he had a gaudy 1.172 OPS. So you think Coors, right? His road OPS was 1.176! 29 of his 49 home runs were hit on the road.
In most of his peak years, his OPS away from Coors was over .900. If you factor in his plus defense and career OBP of .400 (numbers un-aided by Coors Field), I think his prime makes up for a lack of counting stats. It’s pretty much the same thing with Roy Halladay. It’s a shame…if they hadn’t shortened the ballot stay from 15 years to 10 years, Walker might have gathered enough momentum. His case is far stronger than anyone on the Today’s Game Committee.
I love the Terry Francona quote:
The HOF method of voting, which we’re adhering to, is an inherently flawed system. I really dislike it for a lot of reasons, but this is one; when you have a very full ballot the voters can’t easily agree on anyone.
How would you change it? Allow up to 15 on the ballot? Or get rid of the max?
I think I’d rather see a system quite totally different from the current one, and to have the BBWAA not be the only people involved. I don’t really like any element of the current system.
Well, I voted, and I’m pleased to see that my vote for Roy Halladay has, at least as of this writing, pushed him to the 75% threshold.
But - and I hope it’s not bad form to say this here - I’m depressed to say that the entire Hall of Fame process, including threads like this, has become an essentially joyless enterprise for me. I used to love these threads, and the attendant discussion. But while I understand and appreciate the folks who feel otherwise, for me a Hall of Fame that doesn’t include the second-best baseball player of all time and the best pitcher of my lifetime is kind of just a joke. It’s become the Hall-of-Players-Who-Were-Good-at-Baseball-but-Also-Meet-Some-Basically-Arbitrary-Conduct-Standards, and I can’t generate enthusiasm to care about such a thing. It makes me sad, but so it goes, I guess.
I would have to agree with that. The steroid thing has, sadly, created this bizarre limbo of standards. Not having Bonds and Clemens in the Hall is just stupid.
At least with Sammy Sosa there is a case he’s not deserving just based on his value as a ballplayer.
It’s hard to disagree with that sentiment. Or where Mark McGwire falls off the ballot having never received even a quarter of the votes. Sammy Sosa won’t crack 10% this year. On the one hand I agree these guys can’t be just ignored.
On the other hand, the I do think the steroid era damaged baseball. Growing up, you knew that Roger Maris set the single season HR record with 61 in 1961. And you knew the 2nd highest total was 60. Now, you probably know Barry Bonds holds the record but do you know how many? Do you know what year he did it? Do you know the 2nd highest total? (Answers: 73, 2001, McGwire’s 70 in '98.) Same with the career records, most fans probably don’t know exactly what they are anymore. I really think stuff like that damages the game and I can understand why some voters hold that little five year run of baseball against those guys.
Well, the only career homer record that’s different is Bonds’s 762. No one else surpassed Aaron, or, for that matter, Ruth.
Whatever the steroid thing did or did not do, a lot of the wounds are unnecessarily self-inflicted. Baseball is like Sideshow Bob stepping on one rake after another; just don’t step on the next goddamn rake. Putting Bonds and Clemens into the Hall would get that out of the way, at least.
The Curt Schilling criticism bothers me. Schilling according to WAR is the 26th best pitcher of all time. The 25th best pitcher ever by WAR was Bob Gibson who was a first ballot hall of famer. He is two spots ahead of Tom Glavine another first ballot hall of famer. Compared to Glavine, Schilling has a better ERA, more strikeouts, fewer walks, fewer hits per inning, better FIP, better WHIP. The only thing Glavine has is more wins. According to WPA he had the single greatest postseason by a pitcher in 2001.
He has one fewer career strikeout than Bob Gibson, and 625 fewer walks. He has a better strikeout to walk ratio then every hall of famer.
Some seem to be reluctant because of character issues. While he was playing he won the Branch Rickey award for community service, the Hutch Award for fighting adversity, the Lou Gehrig award for character and integrity, the Roberto Clemente award for sportsmanship and community involvement, he was Sporting News Sportsman of the year, twice Sport Illustrated Sportsman of the Year. He has raised $10 million for ALS research. He hosted a family in his house that had lost their home in hurricane Katrina.
The only possible reason for writers not to vote him in is that they disagree with his politics. If making the hall of fame depends more on having the correct political opinions than on baseball excellence there is no reason to have a hall of fame.