[QUOTE=Autolycus]
If 300 was fascist propaganda, wouldn’t that imply that the creaters of the film were fascists?
I thought it was a homo-erotic gorefest, but I missed the Heil Hitler overtones o_0;
[/QUOTE]
Well, I don’t know what Zack Snyder’s politics are, but Frank Miller’s certainly a fascist, albeit one who used to have a sense of humor.
Note that fascism ≠ Nazism.
Triumph of the Will is a pretty spectacular piece of filmmaking.
[QUOTE=Big Bad Voodoo Lou]
And Starship Troopers had some great boobs in it too! 
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but mostly white boobs!
[QUOTE=Lumpy]
Gary Brecher, a.k.a. the War Nerd, rips 300 apart here.. A must read.
[/QUOTE]
He’s good when it comes to the ancient history bits, but when he starts going on about the Iraq War and neocons he’s totally off if just for the fact that the DAMN BOOK the movie was based on was written in the DAMN NINTIES! I somehow doubt Frank Miller has a time machine.
Sorry for yelling, but that really pisses me off.
As for the history: Dude, its’ fiction. I somehow doubt Zeus et. al were involved in the Trojan War, but I still enjoy Homer.
I find this discussion extremely strange.
Sure, the homophobia was stupid as hell. But the fascism? That was pure Greek. So many of the objectionable elements of the story were firmly set either in fact or in the imagination of the Greeks - what should he have done? Historical revisionism is, IMHO, much worse.
And… the Spartans not being white? In what sense do you mean that?
[QUOTE=Alessan]
It also justified world peace.
That’s a bit of the movie that lots of people miss - early on, when Nameless asked the King about his future plans, he answered that after uniting China he would look outward and start adding foreign lands to his empire. But the at the very end of the movie, we see a card saying that the King - now Emperor -was the one who built the Great Wall, bringing peace and turning China’s attentions inward .
To me, that was the whole point of the film- the King’s conversation with Nameless brought about the epiphany that the ultimate use of strength was in not using strength, and that unity must lead to peace.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t buy it. Every dictator, every autocrat always says there will be peace once he’s won. It might not al;ways be cynical deceit – it might be self-delusion in some cases – but one hears it all the time. Most wars are waged “for peace.”
And China securing its borders means, in the Chinese view, conquering the world, because anything outside All-Under-Heaven was regarded as worthless trash.
Sailboat
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon]
And… the Spartans not being white? In what sense do you mean that?
[/quote]
I simply mean that ‘whiteness’ is an artificially defined racial set whose membership changes over time, and those groups that are now considered whites have not always been so pale of skin. But in the mentality of racial superiority, any ethnicity that looks white to us now is one whose achievements we can take credit for no matter what those people looked like or how they self-identified long before we invented the notion of a white race.
[QUOTE=Sailboat]
I don’t buy it. Every dictator, every autocrat always says there will be peace once he’s won.
[/QUOTE]
Well, the alternative is to let the other guy win and what is the point in that?
[QUOTE=Johnny Angel]
I simply mean that ‘whiteness’ is an artificially defined racial set whose membership changes over time, and those groups that are now considered whites have not always been so pale of skin.
[/quote]
I somehow doubt the profile of Greece has changed enough in 2500 years that Greeks today look that much different than Attic Greeks.
Aaaand you’ve lost me. Are you talking across the line of how “races” such as the Irish and the “swarthy” Southern Europeans were not/are not considered White by some? Or maybe how to the Greeks they were better than everyone and were their own race?
[QUOTE=Alessan]
It also justified world peace.
That’s a bit of the movie that lots of people miss - early on, when Nameless asked the King about his future plans, he answered that after uniting China he would look outward and start adding foreign lands to his empire. But the at the very end of the movie, we see a card saying that the King - now Emperor -was the one who built the Great Wall, bringing peace and turning China’s attentions inward .
To me, that was the whole point of the film- the King’s conversation with Nameless brought about the epiphany that the ultimate use of strength was in not using strength, and that unity must lead to peace.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, fascism can be very seductive in the hands of a skilled propagandist. In the sentence, “Peace at any cost,” the fascist will insist that the key word is “peace,” when in fact it may be “any.”
[hijack]
I just wanted to pop in and say I actually liked Hero for that very reason, because I thought that in the end, if you payed attention (for example, the explanation of Broken Sword’s scroll, what the “perfect warrior” should be, and in fact Broken Sword’s entire ideal) to the messages, it was in fact talking about peace and harmony as an ultimate goal.
…I’m glad I’m not the only one who got that out of the movie
[/hijack]
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia]
Note that fascism ≠ Nazism.
[/QUOTE]
No, but Naziism = Fascism.
[QUOTE=enigm4tic]
[hijack]
I just wanted to pop in and say I actually liked Hero for that very reason, because I thought that in the end, if you payed attention (for example, the explanation of Broken Sword’s scroll, what the “perfect warrior” should be, and in fact Broken Sword’s entire ideal) to the messages, it was in fact talking about peace and harmony as an ultimate goal.
…I’m glad I’m not the only one who got that out of the movie
[/hijack]
[/QUOTE]
Wasn’t it in a LeGuin story where someone wished for world peace, and when they woke up there was no one left on the planet but himself? There’s peace, and then there’s peace.
[QUOTE=Zebra]
In 300, it is the Spartans very practice of eugenics that causes their downfall. A deformed child, that would have been killed by Spartan law is spirited away by his parents. Then when he returns and offers to fight along side the Spartans he is refused. Refused for very good reasons, he isn’t trained in the Spartan fighting techniques and he really can’t do it. So, rejected by the Spartans, he goes to the Persians, shows them the secret path that allows them to get behind the 300.
I wouldn’t call that as saying eugenics is a good idea.
[/QUOTE]
Well if they had killed him like they were supposed to, instead of coddling him and then telling him he was useless, he’d never have done what he did.
[QUOTE=lissener]
Wasn’t it in a LeGuin story where someone wished for world peace, and when they woke up there was no one left on the planet but himself?..
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it was a Twilight Zone script, he meets this chick, and the trick ending is that they’re Adam and Eve.
Hey, she was strung out, hungry, needed the money…
[QUOTE=lissener]
I think Hero, Triumph of the Will, and *Starship Troopers * are better fascist manifestos.
[/QUOTE]
Wait a minute – Showgirls is brilliant parody, but Starship Troopers is in earnest? 
No, *Showgirls *is a satirical film about, among other things, American values. *Starship Troopers *works as a satire because it’s done with a straight face.
Geez, I have seen this movie, and wow do people ever get a lot of crap out of a movie that is basically meant as a “cool, look at us killing” moive. Homo-erotic? Homo-phobic? Huh? Since when is men shirtless automatically homoerotic? Guys do go around with out shirts on you know. Guys who have dedicated their lives to fighting and staying in shape will probably look better shirtless then guys who have dedicated their lives to McDonald’s and internet porn. And this is homoerotic? I just don’t get it. Shirtless guys, big deal. Not everything has to do with your penis you know. As much as I may like the idea of everyone worrying about my penis I really don’t think people do.
Homophobic? Because he called the Athenians boy lovers? Weren’t they? Weren’t a lot of people back in ancient greece times? Or is it because it showed a sex scene between king and queen? So heterosexual sex is now homophobic? Or was it because of the lesbians in Xerxes tent? Weren’t the lesbians “freaks” much like the traitor? So freaky lesbians were meant to say being gay is bad? Or is homophobia only applicable to men?
Fascist? Huh? It was about a time when it was “us v them”. This is now fascist? Hitler may have liked this movie so it must be bad? Huh? How the hell do you know what Hitler would have liked?
Are video games responsible for the school shootings too?
[QUOTE=Queuing]
Homo-erotic?
[/QUOTE]
A group of extremely buff men wearing little more than leather panties thrusting Freudian imagery into other men. Nope, nothing homoerotic there!
Queuing, it isn’t homoerotic when a big muscular guy takes a shower. But when you make a movie about a big muscular guy taking a shower, that’s homoerotic.