I was watching 60 Minutes earlier tonight. I did not see the complete story, but pieces of it, due to laundry and general cleaning of my environment. On 60 Minutes, they were talking about the collective guilt and accomodations that Germany was taking to remember the Holocoust and its victims. They interviewed members of parliament, including the youngest (who impressed me very much), and one who feels that Germany has done more than enough accomodation (I respect his right to an opinion).
What bothered me was that 60 Minutes kept bringing up the 6 million number. Even when I visited the local Holocoust museum in Houston, although the emphasis was on the Jews, the guide did not forget to emphasize they were not alone. The Roma lost great numbers, as well as other “undesirables.” If anything, Germany might have got off a lightly for WWII.
I certainly mean to take nothing away from this trial to Judaism, but I sometimes wonder why the other groups are often left out? Especially the Roma.
The number I have always heard is 10 million, including 6 million Jews. I do not think it is some secret that the other 4 million were mostly Roma, communists and other political dissidents, Jehovah’s Witnesses, gays, and Slavs.
Sheesh. That wasn’t a rhetorical question, I literally want to know why this thread is in IMHO. I didn’t see anything that I could really agree or disagree with in the OP.
Er, many people were killed in the Holocaust. In my humble opinion, it was bad.
Well, I’m not a moderator. I dunno. It’s an interesting topic, no matter the forum.
Why do we remember the Jews more than anyone else? Well, because more Jews than everyone else put together were killed. Because the Nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric was so vile. Because the millions of Jews in industrialized nations have the resources to keep the memory alive, as opposed to the Roma, who are primarily impoverished and are still treated like shit whever they go. Because the Holocaust directly led to the creation of the State of Israel, so we have a small, troubled little piece of land in the Middle East that reminds us of the 6 million murdered Jews every time it’s mentioned in the news. We’d likely feel the same way if the Roma had been able to found their own nation immediately after WWII as well.
Per R.J. Rummel, in his fairly exhaustive study Death By Government, the grim total of Nazi Democide is actually roughly 20,946,000, partially broken down as follows (rounded for brevity):
Misc other categories, from all nations in occupied Europe, round out the remainder.
Official estimates actually run from 15,000,000 to 31,600,000 depending on source, but Rummel is able to find justification for just under 21 million. He cites over 70 pages of references to document his position.
The 6 million number always refers to Jews (who do receive the bulk of the emphasis), not as an overall number. I don’t really know what the accepted total is - 20 million is higher than most estimates I’ve seen. Likewise, the un-rounded figure I’d seen for the Jews was a bit under 5.8 million… clearly, a lot remains unknown here. Still, I guess we know enough.
Hmmm. Most estimates I’ve seen from historians cite 20 million. Rummel isn’t the only one, he’s just done the largest and longest published studies concentrating on the subject that I am aware of. Robert Conquest, for instance, also states the 20 million figure IIRC, while Richard Rhodes (author on subjects like the SS Einsatzgruppen, among others) cites a higher total of around 30 million.
Tranq, do you know of somewhere that has those numbers for people like me who’d like to look at them just in case this sort of thing comes up in my daily (non-SDMB) travels?
The other point about the number of Jews being what we remember is that as bad as the other numbers are, they don’t represent an attempt to systematically eliminate a people group.
The Roma were “trash”, and the Slavs and the POWs were inconvenient to have around, and were easier to kill than deal with, but the Jews were hunted down pointedly.
It’s that pointed hunting that gives Hitler the huge edge in the creepiness department. Stalin was controlling and evil and murderous, but Hitler wins the demon-freaky contest.
Ironically, many POWs in the USSR would have fought Stalin’s troops if they had been allowed, because he had treated them so badly, but the SS wouldn’t stand for it. They just mostly killed the POWs of “other races”.
Maybe this is then another reason the Germans didn’t hold onto their gains in the USSR.
Perhaps we should rename the forum to MPSIMS&ONONST (Mundane Pointless Stuff I Must Share & Occasionally Non-mundane Or Non-pointless Stuff, Too). But that might be a tad too much…
I’ve always felt that it was because that the Jews, no matter what they did, were singled out, while communists were in opposition to the ideals of fascism and gypsies were (in the mind of psychopathic murdering monsters) counter-productive to the society that Hitler wanted.
'Course, it’s an insignificant distinction, I imagine. I applaud Germany’s efforts to learn from the mistakes of one of the worst periods in human history.
Sorry, 'punha. The closes I have for you is a US$20 three-pound book. On the plus side, it’s full of numbers on everything from pre-20th century mass killings & democide to Marshal Tito’s run at the championship.
The book is Death By Government and is disturbingly good reading. If that’s not sufficient, you might also look up The Black Book Of Communism, an even larger, heavier, and slightly more expensive book. The second is limited in it’s focus to nominally communist states, but it’s by a collection of European authors, and provides an interesting change of perspective.
When Amnesty and the other like-minded organizations get things sorted out, we’ll probably be adding Saddam Hussien’s name to the list. Depending on whom you listen to, he’ll likely exceed Josip Broz, and may even give Pol Pot a run for his money. He’s certainly earned his place on the list in at least spot #10, though the horror in the Congo will most likely exceed Iraq’s total fatality count.