Agreed that the murderers are far, far worse people than Jones. I further agree that Jones had every legal right to express his political views - which is as it should be, in a free society.
That said, it’s perfectly fair to say that these views are assinine. And that Jones knew - because he’d had it very carefully explained to him by many people - that expressing his assinine views in this way could be used by even more assinine people to justify violence. He did it anyway. For this reason, even though I would defend Jones with everything I’ve got from any legal sanction, I think it’s fair to conclude he’s an ass.
“…restrain himself…”
Bullshit. That’s allowing radicals to dictate behavior standards for the entire free world. Neither Islam nor any other faith has the right to impose their will on others. I’m not religious. I am not bound by any religious laws, principles, or beliefs. I owe no duty to any religious leader.
Believe whatever you like…but you do not get to impose that belief on others in any way, shape, or form. You don’t get to riot, threaten, or kill anyone that doesn’t play by your rules.
Say, they could have burned a Bible! It would have been equally adversarial and stupid since their religions are pretty much the same freaking stupid thing in the first place. I do find guys like Jones galling especially for that reason. ‘My religion’s about Jesus, the prince of peace, and your shit’s all retarded, so fuck you.’ Whatever. Bunch of morons. It’s also true that Jones’ action precipitated a riot where a bunch of people got killed because he wanted to make his pissy little statement about Islam and didn’t care what might happen if he did it. It’s true that he didn’t start the riot, but it’s also true that if he’d listened to all the people who talked him out of this protest the last time, a bunch of people wouldn’t be dead. Of course he’s not the only one missing the point. Karzai’s response about a crime against a religion is nonsense.
I’m not nominating Jones for man of the year or anything. He sure sounds like an asshole. I do, however, now and forevermore, flatly reject any notion of an obligation to avoid offending radicals for fear of what criminal actions they may take in response.
I’m going on a picnic this weekend with my Druidess. Odds are good I’ll be eating some form of pork product. I’m pretty sure that somewhere in the world there’s an Iman and maybe a Rabbi that would say I shouldn’t oughta do that. Too fucking bad. I like pork. I’m gonna eat pork whether religious folks like it or not.
Maybe Jones gets a woody when he fires up a Quran. OK, that would make him weird, and an asshole…but still would not make him morally responsible for the criminal acts of third parties.
I believe that your posts are a blasphemous affront to God, and I am warning you now that if you ever post on this message board again, I am going to go out and kill fifty people. My belief may be described as delusional, with no connection to observable reality, but what matters, however, is that I hold it with tremendous convicion. I believe that the heavens shake with outrage every time you post.
You may have some difficulty appreciating the gravity of this situation. You may argue that your posts make serious points, and that I have no right to get such a giant bug up my ass every time you choose to voice your opinions in an open forum. You may not understand why I am offended. After all, it’s just a post. However, you don’t have to understand. You just have to accept that, for reasons of my own, I find the act of you posting to be an unspeakable insult to my ethics, my personal identity and my God. And I will kill fifty people if you ever post here again.
Now that you are aware of this, I trust you to take my feelings into account every time you are tempted to post, as well as the terrible consequences of offending me. If you ever do post again, I will assume it was with the sole intention blaspheming my God. Again, you don’t have to understand why I will be offended. You just have to accept that, just as dawn follows dusk, I will be.
[sub]This incredibly dickish post was written so solely to make a point. I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against spark240 and am just trying to convey my opinion that people shouldn’t be held responsible for violence committed by others in response to speech that didn’t advocate such.[/sub]
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re attempting to draw a contrast between people’s reactions to burning a Bible and to burning a Qur’an?
You’re doing this based on how you imagine posters would react to a hypothetical news story, and contrasting it with how people are reacting to this one? Even though you’re only the 6th post in the thread – making the reaction you’re seeing to THIS news story also hypothetical, really.
Especially since, if I’m not guessing wrong, I think you’re trying to say that the posters in this thread are not blaming the perpetrators of this violence as hard as they should, even though the majority of posts preceding yours did in fact condemn the (outrageous) actions of the Afghani protesters.
You’re comparing one hypothetical response to another hypothetical response and drawing conclusions about the board based on them. You must have a truly amazing intellect in order to deduce so much based on so little evidence.
Spark with his bit about showing restraint
**
Omegaman** with his bit about taking history into account
And that young lawyerling I don’t speak to anymore with his roundabout way of blaming Jones for the violence because other people told him it would happen.
Just rechecked, and none of them said anything like that. And certainly none of the ones that preceded your post – i.e. the posts you were responding to. Attempting to reference later responses to justify yours could really be taken as an admission of well-poisoning.
Ok, now what if spark240 actually had reason to believe that this wasnt just hyperbole, and that you just might go out and kill fifty people? What if it actually was a possible consequence? Really think about this.
Should he still post?
Not can he post? Should he post? He might have the right to post, but should he do it?
I believe in basic human rights, but you know, sometimes even idealistic concepts like freedom of speech shouldnt ignore the physical reality of cause and effect.
No, they are much the same. This is a standard pattern the Right loves to indulge in. They do or say something that they know will whip up the fanatics - theirs or some other bunch of fanatics like in this case. And then when the predictable bloodshed happens they pretend that that wasn’t what they wanted all along, and do it again later. It’s a way of indulging in religious & political violence while keeping your hands clean.
Which right wing fanatics are you referring to, who attack and kill dozens of innocent UN workers? Can’t think of any similar instances off of the top of my head.
The problem with this analogy is that the extremist muslims are going to behead people no matter what the pastor does. If the fifty people are going to be killed no matter what, you might as well not walk on eggshells to avoid offending the killer.
It’s too bad the pastor burned that Koran. Before that, the Muslims never beheaded anybody. :rolleyes:
Can’t argue that point and to be sure killing people over a book is fucking ridiculous, but based on previous actions over something as stupid as a comic strip, he knew it was going to stir up the shit.
Yeah, and those dead people wont be needing to worry about their rights.