Isn’t that kind of like, “sure, Muslims can build a mosque at Ground Zero, but out of respect for the victims of 9/11 they really shouldn’t”?
Because it was a stupid argument then…
That’s different in that the Islamic center was a gesture of outreach. Even though it was treated like a terrorist attack in its own right, it’s an open hand. Jones is extending one finger.
Perhaps the good pastor did it as an art project. Modern art seems to be all about pissing off various people. Usually those other people who have other opinions that the artist and his audience. If it is not provocative, then it is not art, is a common mantra. From Piss Christ, Jesus with a hard-on, 9/11 teater celebrations, to paintings of the Danish royal family having animal sex and now also the Koran Roasting. It’s all very progressive and edgy.
Are you saying that the only thing that keeps people from shooting each other on the streets is everyone’s defiant insistence on continuing to walk down them?
“It’s no use Sarge! Every time we gun down a pedestrian, another one take his place and the walkin’ never stops . We’d better pack it in.”
“Forget it, son. If we give up trying to stop people from walking down the street, how we gonna stop them from sitting down to dinner? We’ll have to give up our whole effort to control every aspect of people’s lives, and then where will we be?”
There’s not really any ambiguity as to why the pastor burned the Koran. He’s written a book himself: Islam is of the Devil. He burned the thing to show contempt for the religion and its followers and as an act of of defiance. He’s a conservative Christian and he thinks Muslims are devil-worshippers, essentially. Seems clear enough, and it’s certainly his right to show defiance toward whatever he likes, but I don’t see the profit in pretending it could be this or it could be that. Dude sent his kids to school in T-shirts that read “Islam is of the devil.” He’s not that subtle.
I also don’t understand the constant references to his First Amendment rights. The Constitution doesn’t shield us from moral responsibility for our actions. Nobody has questioned that Jones was fully entitled legally to burn a Koran, nor has anybody really argued that it was entirely unforeseeable that somebody somewhere in the world was going to freak out and do something terrible as a result. So it seems to me that the only question is whether Jones’ message was worth it, as I think we can probably all agree that some messages are worth lives in the long run, and some aren’t. Personally, I don’t think his was; being extremely irreligious, I’m skeptical that one religious fanatic’s condemnation of another religion is worth the lives of innocent third parties when the message appears to be limited to “Ahh, go fuck yourselves.”
But that doesn’t have anything do with the First Amendment, and it doesn’t have anything to do with our bowing to some sort of Islamic iron fist that we’re all terrified of. It certainly isn’t because I think he is required to be more respectful of anybody’s faith. It’s just that, if he had a point that was somehow inclined toward making something better for somebody somewhere, it seems to me that he didn’t make it very well. If he didn’t have that kind of a point, why should I respect his decision, exactly? The reason not to is easy enough to find.
IMHO, burn whatever the fuck you like, just don’t hold a huge damned press conference about it.
Look, it is just like the damned Phelpses, they ahve the right to protest, but if we never heard about it from their webpage or the news would we give a shit?
If you don’t hear about something it can’t piss you off.
The argument I see (and not the one I’ve made) is that from a First Amendment point of view, it doesn’t matter why he did it. It’s protected speech and that’s the end of it. The Constitution protects assholes and people who have something cogent to say. And that’s all true. But a few people here have suggested that Jones would have been kowtowing to fanatics if he hadn’t burned the Quran, and that’s just not true. When he first came up with this idea, everybody from Hillary Clinton and David Petraeus on down asked him not to do it because it was likely to provoke a batshit insane response. So he backed down. I wouldn’t be surprised if some lunatics had said they would kill him, but I don’t think that had anything to do with his decision. He gave up because he decided he didn’t want to face a hostile audience. Instead he did it quietly in his own church or whatever it is (estimated membership: 60) and then announced it later. He’s not responsible for making people freak out about it. On the other hand it is true that Jones was aware his actions would provoke a violent response and he didn’t care, so after he went ahead, 12 people died. He’s not more responsible than the killers but he’s more of a publicity whore than ever and he didn’t make some kind of a stand for First Amendment rights. He stood up for religious insanity and provoked some other insanity to justify his own. I’d close this post with “Jesus Wept” but I guess that’d be a little too obvious.
Outreach, my ass. It was a thumb in the eye. (Whether they should be allowed to build it is a different discussion.)
Jesus wept.
Don’t wowwy, the bad Muswims can’t hurt you.
I hope you never start thinking about this issue because you’ll wind up embarrassed you said this kind of crap. As if New York City Muslims had nothing better to do than piss off everybody else in town. They were so beloved before they said they were building a community center down there.
While I would have been happier if those Korans were not burned, I think the pastor wanted to make a political point. And he has the right to do that.
On the bright side, it shines another beam of light on what is a clash of civilizations. Islam and the rest of the world needn’t be at odds with each other, as is evidenced by the millions and millions of Muslims who do not stoop to barbaric behavior that might have felt more normal fifteen hundred years ago. But these assholes who think that can justifiably resort to barbarism every time a book they view is holy or their religious icon is portrayed in a cartoon, etc., not light shone upon them. The world needs to collectively wake up and view these assholes as some Manson-like cult. So, in that regard, the more their asshole barbarism is brought to light the better—in the longterm, anyway.
If their goal was “outreach”, don’t you think they would have been happy to back away from their plans when it caused so much consternation? Why, yes. Yes, they would have.
Or maybe you have a different notion of “outreach” than the one commonly understood.
Maybe they realized most of the consternation was coming from Republican politicians, from idiots 1,500 miles away, and from other people whose opinions deserved to be disregarded. And maybe they realized that giving in to a bunch of hysterical morons would be a setback and not an olive branch. It’s ridiculous to have to defend a religious community center - I’d be happy if there were none of them and I’m probably never going to find myself at this one - but the stupidity people spout about this one is amazing. It’s like protesting a YMCA. Who gives a shit if it’s a YMCA for Muslims instead of Christians? No matter what you do with it, it’s a YMCA. How about this: for every terrorist attack plotted at this community center, I owe you $1.
And maybe they just wanted to jab a thumb in our eye while they continue to spread Islam, knowing that they can count on the likes of people like you to give them cover.
And I find it funny that you offered just the $1. Doesn’t seem you’re quite as confident as you try to lead on. 
You’re talking about people who thought the U.S. was going to capitulate after some schmucks with boxcutters crashed four airplanes. You wish they were so sophisticated.
I thought it was so stupid you couldn’t possibly take it seriously, so congratulations - you surprised me. Originally I was going to say “for every terrorist attack I’ll buy you a Coke,” but I thought the $1 would better highlight the ridiculousness of the idea of fanatical Muslims building a swimming pool near the WTC site so they could plan terrorist attacks there.
Yeah, but that distinction requires an inquiry into subjective intent. It’s obvious that Jones was just being a douche, but if he hadn’t made it quite as obvious would it still have been wrong?
Don’t get me wrong: I still say he was a douche. But he’s not to blame for the deaths.
I’ve never an attempt to so minimize their actions. Unbelievable. I’m surprised at you.
I know some people around here have trouble reading the words on the page, but most people do well with pictures…like smilies. I guess it’s too much to assume that someone—a Mod, no less—would have the ability to at least do the latter. Consider ignorance fought.
Perhaps you should talk to Ed and request the board incorporate a way to increase the size of said smilies for those hard of seeing.
Not nearly as wrong, because being obvious about it in the attempt to instigate something just like what happened IS what made it such an immoral action in the first place.
An attitude that is very convenient for people like him, since it means they can kill again and again without fear of personal consequences. The right wingers love this.
Who’s minimizing anything? They thought the U.S. would capitulate and give them everything they wanted if they crashed four airplanes and killed some people. They didn’t even expect a counterattack. It was a stupid theory and it was very wrong, which is why a lot of these people are dead now and most of the rest are in hiding. That’s not where they thought they were going to be right now.
I had a feeling you meant it. I still kind of do. 