8-year-old boy kills himself with AK-47

[Muffin]

@ExTank

I don’t think any Federal laws were violated here; technically, he wasn’t given the firearm to possess (as in, “Here, kid, take this home and hold it for me until I pick it up on Tuesday;” or, “Would you mind putting it in the trunk of your car for the drive home?”).

Perhaps an American lawyer could explain what constitutes “possession” with respect to Chapter 44 of the US Code (that’s the Chapter that prohibits possession of a firearm by a juvenile except under certain conditions – such for target shooting with written consent from a parent).

If “possession” is as simple as having knowledge and having control, then yes, the kid had possession. If possession is something more than having knowledge and control for a brief period of time while under close supervision by the owner, then the kid did not have possession.

If the child did have possession, was there written consent (one assumes that there would at least have been some sort of waiver signed, but then again, one assumes that no one in their right mind would let an eight year old fire an automatic weapon), and even if there was not written consent, would the law be flexible enough to take into consideration that there obviously was consent by the father by virtue of his actions.

@muldoonthief

There’s a frightening quote from the DA in that article:

“At this point, I have found no lawful authority which allows an 8-year-old to possess or fire a machine gun,” Bennett (the DA) said in a statement.

Last I checked, the USA was still a country where that which is not expressly illegal is permitted, not where that which is not expressly legal is forbidden.

True, but there is a law that expressly forbids juveniles from possessing firearms. What needs to be determined is whether or not an exception to the prohibition was properly met.

@catsix

You’re right. That kind of ignorance on the part of a District Attorney is sickening.

Someone should send Bennett back to school to learn that in the USA we do not operate on an ‘everything is forbidden unless expressly permitted’ basis.

Except that US Code Chapter 44 prohibits kids from possessing firearms, unless certain conditions are met.

I think that both you and the DA have jumped to conclusions. I don’t think the DA clearly set out what the law says, nor do I think that you have clearly set out what the law says, for while in general one is free to do something unless there is a specific prohibition, there is a specific prohibition when it comes to kids and guns. What neither the DA nor you have addressed is whether or not the brief use of the gun while under supervision constituted possession, and whether strongly implied consent could stand in lieu of written consent (and for all we know, written consent may have been given, and if so, then the exception to the juvenile possession prohibition would have been satisfied).

[Malacandra]

@villa

Consider yourself pardoned. Consider this a hearty go fuck yourself as well.

I bow before the awesome rhetorical skills of the Master of Quick Wit & Repartee.

[Muffin]

In any event, chasing about on issues of possession and consent seems to me to be way off target, when really the question should be one of negligence. Was the father, the gun owner, or the gun show criminally negligent in letting an eight year old fire an automatic weapon?

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Muffin

In any event, chasing about on issues of possession and consent seems to me to be way off target, when really the question should be one of negligence. Was the father, the gun owner, or the gun show criminally negligent in letting an eight year old fire an automatic weapon?

Apparently not. So far, it appears that everything that happened was legal according to Mass law.

[Muffin]

That’s the thing about negligence – you can do something perfectly legal in a hugely negligent manner, and thereby get nailed for criminal negligence. If letting an eight year old fire an automatic weapon is on its face criminally negligent, then the father may be in trouble. If letting an eight year old fire an automatic weapon is on its face not criminally negligent, then the father may not be in trouble (although the mother might shoot him).

[Cheesesteak]

Here’s an example from NYS defining criminally negligent homicide

Under our law, a person is guilty of Criminally Negligent
Homicide when, with criminal negligence, that person causes the
death of another person.

A person acts with CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE with respect to
a death when

that person engages in conduct which creates or contributes
to a substantial and unjustifiable risk that another person’s
death will occur,

and when he or she fails to perceive that risk,

and when that risk is of such nature and degree that failure
to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard
of care that a reasonable person would observe in the
situation.

Linky Poo (warning, PDF)

[Isamu]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

There will never be a point in time when we do not have idiot adults. To think otherwise is pure fantasy. So, Illuminatiprimus is correct. People like this 8 year old boy are the ones paying for our collective right to own, bear and full auto rock and roll with firearms. Just like the 9 year old boy who shot his twin brother with the household handgun last week in the township next to mine. They paid the bill for your right, so make it worthwhile, I suppose.

Crying out post hoc that these are simply accidents due to careless or stupid adults is ignoring the obvious fact that we can predict with absolute certainty that there will be careless and stupid adults tomorrow as well.

I agree, it’s the price you have to pay if you want to have relatively lax firearm ownership laws.

You have to be willing to accept that kids will find a way to get at them, use them poorly, be poorly supervised, and that crazy adults will also be able to use them. It’s the tradeoff.

Spoken by someone who enjoys shooting and used to have a license but let it lapse after he left Australia.

[Kevbo]

@muldoonthief

…What I can’t figure out is how he wound up with the muzzle pointed at his head and his hand still on the grip and holding the trigger…

When the thing you are hanging onto is trying to rip itself from your grasp, there is a strong tendancy to hold on tighter, which keeps you pulling the trigger. People get hurt with 1/2" drill motors all the time due to this. If he completely lost his grip, then the gun could rock back over his thumb with his finger caught in the trigger guard.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

ExTank, I just noticed that you called me out in a separate GD thread for spewing spittle in your face in this pit thread. Seems to me I’ve been fairly calm, whereas you’ve suggested taking pleasure in killing politicians. I don’t see that you’ve been able to answer as to how it is that gun owners have been vigilant defenders against the expanding police state. Nor have you offered any sort of contrary position to my arguments regarding risk exposure.

But since you want spittle, I think that to run from responding in this thread to call me out in a GD thread is something only a little cunt would do.

[ExTank]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

ExTank, I just noticed that you called me out in a separate GD thread for spewing spittle in your face in this pit thread.

My apologies. I confused you w/ Jack Batty. How the hell I did that is stupefying.

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Seems to me I’ve been fairly calm, whereas you’ve suggested taking pleasure in killing politicians.

Yes, you have, and unlike every single other member of the SDMB, I’ve been known to engage in hyperbole now and again. Shoot me.

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

I don’t see that you’ve been able to answer as to how it is that gun owners have been vigilant defenders against the expanding police state. Nor have you offered any sort of contrary position to my arguments regarding risk exposure.

Step into GD, and let the games commence.

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

But since you want spittle, I think that to run from responding in this thread to call me out in a GD thread is something only a little cunt would do.

See above.

True story:

Two bulls, a young bull and an old bull, are standing on a little hill overlooking a herd of cows.

The young bull, all excited, turns to the old bull, and says, “Let’s go down there and fuck us a cow!”

The old bull looks up from the grass he was calmly grazing on, and says ,“No.”

He says, “Let’s walk down there, and fuck 'em all.”

I don’t have to run from anyone here at the SDMB over this issue; least of all you.

I wanted a debate, not to be ranted at, whether by you, or anyone.

See ya in GD.

[catsix]

Muffin said:
I don’t think the DA clearly set out what the law says, nor do I think that you have clearly set out what the law says, for while in general one is free to do something unless there is a specific prohibition, there is a specific prohibition when it comes to kids and guns.

My disgust at the DA’s statement does not have to do with kids and guns, merely with the DA’s seeming belief that one must point to a law which permits one to do something or that DA will assume that the “something” is illegal.

The DA is wrong, and frighteningly so, if he thinks that the basis of law in this country is that an act is illegal unless specifically permitted.

[ouryL]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

The facts as finally out.

Gun club, police chief indicted in boy’s Uzi death

[E-Sabbath]

And that’s a damn fine outcome of a horribly negligent tragedy.
I didn’t know giving a minor an automatic weapon was a crime, but I fully support that.
Lying about a certified instructor in a case of life or death?

… once again, disarm the damn cops, they’re more dangerous than the crooks are.

[Eats_Crayons]

Dear, Og! The 8-year-old was “supervised” by an uncertified 15-year-old boy?

And the police chief is the one who said it was perfectly legal for children to use an Uzi?

There’s too much wrong with that situation. I think my head may explode.

[GawnFishin]

I especially liked this part of the story…

@Thomas Drechsler

He said neither the club nor any member gave the Uzi to Christopher or any children, and weren’t in the immediate area when the accident happened.

But it was their fair and they were supposed to be running the whole show weren’t they? So who was responsible for the weapons? Anyone? Or was it setup in such a way that anyone who wanted to “FULL AUTO ROCK & ROLL,” could just walk up and grab a gun and start firing?

[Bryan_Ekers]

@ExTank

True story:

Two bulls, a young bull and an old bull, are standing on a little hill overlooking a herd of cows.

The young bull, all excited, turns to the old bull, and says, “Let’s go down there and fuck us a cow!”

The old bull looks up from the grass he was calmly grazing on, and says ,“No.”

He says, “Let’s walk down there, and fuck 'em all.”

I dunno about true, but it’s a better story if the young bull says “Let’s run down there and fuck us a cow!”

…'cause, y’know, it’s a parable about patience…

[Muffin]

Bryan, Bryan, Brayn, ya knows we loves ya . . .

[gonzomax]

When I was that age I got a BB gun. Kids have a lot more fun nowadays.