Bad choice of video. Looked like a large orange banner just above the hole. Oh wait! That was fire. The fire that wasn’t there. Or something. Anyway…
I’m not disputing that it was a woman in the hole. Look again. She is probably less than 6 ft tall. So the hole she is standing in is huge compared to her. This hole was cut thru steel beams by a plane. Much structural damage was done. You say thermite cuts thru steel like a knife thru butter? Well, so, evidently, do jet planes.
But jet planes cutting thru the steel had no effect, it was thermite cutting thru the steel that did it.
Right…
I’d like to stay and chat, but I’m late for my meeting of The Knights Templar concerning the Illuminati. Tonite’s discussion is… well, secret. That’s how we roll.
Your entire evidence of a conspiracy is a news reporter babbling a voice over over a blurry tape that may or may not be what she’s referring to? Okay, fine, let’s go with that. I’m tiring of this, but I thought; why go by your fuzzy video link? Why not just find another picture of the Flight 93 impact site rather than your blurry video? That will tell me if the crater’s a tiny little thing.
Guess what I found?
The 17:25 “crater” you’re referring to is not the impact site of Flight 93. Here is an image of the real impact site:
As you can see there is a fairly substantial impact point in the forest. In your tape, the camera was zoomed in on a point on a road in front of a white structure… not unlike the one the bottom right of this photo. The cameraman wasn’t shooting what the reporter was talking about. You’ve been tilting at a windmill.
I’m inclined to agree, especially since none of the CT’s are actually engaging in the debate…just regurgatating the same old tripe without bothering to even attempt to answer any of the perfectly valid questions asked of them.
I’m kicking myself for once again getting drawn into one of these stupid things. The last time went no further than this one has.
Ok…how do you propose to tie it into all those explosives you were talking about earlier (one on seemingly each floor)? Magic? Or invisible det-cord? Look, its YOUR wild ass theory (well, you are defending it anyway)…you tell me. You posit one detonator (though you still haven’t addressed the multiple explosions at various times that you ALSO claim happen…at least, thats what your key piece of evidence says happened). You do realize that the detonator has to tie into the explosives some how, yes? And if we have explosives on multiple floors then, well, they have to tie together somehow…right? Well, its simple…how did they do it with one detonator, radio controlled or not?
Of course, we are still waving aside the other part of this…reguardless of whether there was one magic detonator or hundreds of the things (one for each explosive charge), there is still that pesky problem of no residue found from said explosives.
Ok…how do you propose to tie it into all those explosives you were talking about earlier (one on seemingly each floor)? Magic? Or invisible det-cord? Look, its YOUR wild ass theory (well, you are defending it anyway)…you tell me. You posit one detonator (though you still haven’t addressed the multiple explosions at various times that you ALSO claim happen…at least, thats what your key piece of evidence says happened). You do realize that the detonator has to tie into the explosives some how, yes? And if we have explosives on multiple floors then, well, they have to tie together somehow…right? Well, its simple…how did they do it with one detonator, radio controlled or not?
Of course, we are still waving aside the other part of this…reguardless of whether there was one magic detonator or hundreds of the things (one for each explosive charge), there is still that pesky problem of no residue found from said explosives.
At this point I don’t expect answers to any of the myriad questions raised in this thread to be honest. At this point I’m pretty much winding down myself…and promissing myself I won’t get tied into another of these threads again.
Are you seriously arguing this point? You don’t think the bombs on one level can be set to one frequency, the ones below that floor to another, and so on. And then after it’s all set up, and all the bombs have their own little identification and sense of self, you don’t think there’s such a thing (computer w/ antennae) that could be programmed to set them all off? A radio detonator is nothing more than an antennae set to specific frequency, so do you think that there’s nothing on this Earth that can handle all those bombs, no program that could be written? That the military has nothing that can set off multiple bombs at different times other than separate detonators for each and every bomb?
From here on out, xtisme, nothing you have to say should be of any concern to anyone, since you cannot figure this simple thing out on your own. Invisible detonation cord, magic, psshhhhh…
No residue? There wasn’t even any time to inspect any of the debris. It was immediately sent off and smelted. There was melted steel found, however, with rust all over it. The end product of a thermite reaction with steel is, surprise, iron.
Gee, it sounds complicated. I’d be afraid that someone out of all the people who worked on those multiple floors might possibly see me rigging up one or more of those explosive charges.
If I were the head of the conspiracy, I’d try to find an easier way to cause terror, panic and death. Maybe fly a couple of planes into the buildings. What else do I need?
OK. Enough. Everyone is now getting into the act of hurling insults and several posters are simply beginning to repeat themselves.
bigpappadiaz, you were told to not direct the “putz” smiley at other posters and our rules are pretty clear that insults are not permitted here.
This is a Warning to stop it.
The rest of you can stop insulting the “conspiracy theorists,” as well, on the grounds that I am just liable to decide you are using it to insult bigpappadiaz via a back door.
Stick to the evidence and deductions and leave the personal stuff for the Pit.
Let me see if I have this right. I ask you up thread where all the detonators are and you come back with some bullshit about how perhaps there is only one wireless detonator. I then point out the flaws to this arguement (i.e. you need a detonator per explosive…or you need to run wires from your sole detonator to each explosive)…and then you come back with the above? Does ‘circular arguement’ mean anything to you?
Let me spell it out for you since you obviously aren’t getting it. A detonator basically just sends an electrical signal to an explosive device to, well, detonate it. Yeah, you can have one device set off multiple explosives…but you have to run wires from the detonator to each explosive. Seems simple enough to me. So…if there is one detonator, where are the wires leading to all the explosive devices? If there are multple detonators, one for each explosive device, where are they?
Well, since you seem to have some problem in your ability to understand things I guess I can see your point. Since you seem to be including some big crowd in your disclaimer that what I say is of no concern to ‘anyone’, I will assume you either have a mouse in your pocket or perhaps an invisible friend…to go along with your magic detonators.
Horseshit. Cite that the debris was sent off immediately to be smelted? Where do you get this crap? Hell man…it took them fricking months (over a year IIRC) to clean up the site. There were inspectors crawling all over that stuff all during that time.
As for thermite, do you realize that it doesn’t explode (like your eye witnesses claim to have heard)? The way you are describing its use there IS no large explosion. That you’d need direct contact with the actual steel to use it (supports that hadn’t been precleared…how’d dey do dat?)? That you need an oxidizer? That it would certainly leave traces?
Hell, never mind. This has been an absolute waste of time. Perhaps someone else will want to beat their head against the wall of your ignorance for a while and explain how thermite actually works…not that it wouldn’t be falling on deaf ears as far as you are concerned.
I’m not sure where you are getting this stuff, but let us consider the accuracy of these points:
First, 2000°F is not really a big deal. That is the same temperature of the blue flame on your gas stove. (It is the temperature of the flames that Stroh’s used to brew their hops back when they were advertising their “fire brewed” beer.) Obviously, the stove in your kitchen and the brewing vats at Stroh’s on Gratiot Ave. were not putting out the same BTUs, but they were controlled flames, not a wild fire. The important point is the the temperature was not unimaginably intense.
More to this point, no official or expert has claimed that the “fireballs” were responsible for the damage. The fireballs were the big, showy flames that demonstrated just how much fuel was trapped in the buildings after the planes hit, but it was the presence of that fuel (which, unlike in a Tom Cruise or Bruce Willis movie, does not all disappear in a single flame in the real world) that kept the fires going long enough to damage the structure of the building.
The very fact that the buildings fell much later than the crashes points to the fireballs NOT being the proximate cause of the buildings collapsing. In fact, it was the presence of the fuel, burning for a long period that caused the collapses (and the timing bears that out: the second building hit fell first because the plane struck lower, meaning there was more weight above the fire to crush the weakening supports). It took the better part of an hour for that fuel to eat its way through the fire insulation and then begin working on the steel beams.
The fireballs had nothing to do with the destruction of the cockpit recorders. The forward sections of the fuselages disintegrated as they passed through the buildings, but the they were ahead of the fuel tanks and the flames only later caught up to those parts of the planes that remained in the buildings. A lot of both the planes and the offices were ejected out the far side of the buildings at the time of the crash and were never damaged by fire.
Maybe they did, or maybe the subsequent prolonged fires did. Given the reality of #2, it is irrelevant.
Since the fireballs erupted inside the buildings at the same instant that much of the offices and much of the fuselages (up to 60 feet forward of the fuel tanks and still traveling at a high rate of speed) were being propelled out of the buildings, there was a lot of debris (including bodies or body parts) from the offices and planes that never burned. Many of those pieces of debris and body parts were found by regular people and the idea that the FBI was able to intercept every single one suggests that every agent and staff worker on the Eastern seaboard was hovering around the whole southern end of Manhattan trying to collect debris before anyone else got to it–and yet there are not dozens of tales mentioning that the FBI took something away from them.
I’ll chip in if I may. Bigpappadiaz, while I am not a practicing engineer I have my BS and MS in structural engineering and I have witnessed a couple of thermite “burns” firsthand. Them’s my credentials.
First of all you don’t have to “melt” structural steel to get it to collapse. Steel loses amazing amounts of strength when it gets hot. It’s known that the fireproofing in the WTC wasn’t so great and a planeload of jet fuel plus all of the other flammable stuff in your average office (papers, furniture, upholstery, curtains, all that kind of stuff) provides plenty of heat. Here’s a link, if you scroll down a bit you’ll see a graph showing loss of yield strength of structural steel in a fire, you lose about 50% at 550C:
Dig around a little bit and you can find plenty of other numbers but that’s in the ballpark. That 50% loss is devastating.
Next, you don’t have to sever columns to get them to collapse, far from it. If you have a column holding up a heavy load there is something called the P-delta effect which basically means that if you distort the column in some way (say by moving the top a little bit) you get very large Moments (bending force, in plain English) as a result, which tend to cause the column to distort even further, which results in larger Moments and so on. It’s not exactly like standing on an empty Coke can and having someone tap it gently but that gives you the rough idea.
Next, thermite does not “react” with steel, it burns through it. Thermite is iron oxide and powdered aluminum. It doesn’t explode, it burns really hot. One of the leftovers is indeed molten iron (not steel) - which there doesn’t appear to be any evidence of, btw - but another thing it produces is that it sprays aluminum oxide all over the place. I’ve watched thermite burn several times (both in Chemistry class and in civil engineering, a grad student’s thesis was on using thermite to repair broken railroad tracks in situ so he got to light the stuff off in our crane bay).
Next, I’m not sure what actual knowledge you have of building demolitions but it’s not like what we see in the movies where somebody slaps a bit of plastique on the wall and knocks down the building - it takes tons of prep work, direct access to the structural members, there’s holes drilled all over the place, wires and det cord by the mile (even assuming a whole bunch of radio-equipped detonators you still have the other stuff)…sure you could do it without that effort but you’d have to bring in tons and tons of high explosives, little hard to do in the world’s biggest office building.
From a structural engineering perspective there is nothing suspicious about the collapse.
