Doesn’t surprise me that ironbender didn’t know this. What IS a surprise (in an ‘I’m militantly unsurprised’ sort of way) is that his supposed ‘structural engineer’ didn’t actually bother looking at the plans of the WTC before asserting that it had to be explosive demolition that brought the buildings down. 
-XT
No. You have not. You simply wish to wave your hands and claim that something that we can seen NOT happening is happening in those videos.
Red steel is NEVER molten and CANNOT flow.
There are videos that show showers of red sparks that look similar to a lot of things that burn red, (roughly 600° F), and some videos showing hotter flames. Thermite is a red herring since it was not present in the WTC.
Your “fact” is something that you either made up or that you are repeating from some other person without the training or experience to know what they are saying. The plastics, composites, and lighter metals in office furniture, once ignited, can burn very hot–certainly hot enough to cause steel to lose its strength without ever becoming “molten.”
Well, ironbender conceded the office fire could make the buildings collapse, but since he never answered my questions about why the fall speed was significant, I guess that’s as good as I can hope for.
My guess is you know this already, but the fall speed is significant because CTers who believe that the building was brought down by explosive demolition are also under the impression that the building fell at ‘free fall speeds’…which, in their minds, could only happen if the building was brought down using explosives. If the collapse happened due to a pancake like effect of a single floor collapsing and causing a cascade effect that brought the whole building down, then the building couldn’t have fallen at ‘free fall speeds’.
True enough, though even with explosive demolition, buildings don’t fall at ‘free fall speeds’. And, in fact, the video evidence clearly shows beams and other debris falling faster than the collapsing building. But they ignore this and insist that the smoking gun for demolition is this whole erroneous assertion that it feel at the same speed as free fall.
-XT
I gathered, but he never even explained how fast the building should have fallen, except that the difference is apparently measurable in tenths of a second, which leads to questions (also unanswered) about how precise the measuring devices are and how such minute disparities, assuming they exist, can be confirmed.
But enough Socratic irony - he believes in the conspiracy because he wants to believe in the conspiracy, not because of any actual evidence of conspiracy.
I don’t believe they have a precise measurement or yardstick in mind…simply ‘well, it really looks just like what I think a building being demolished using explosives looks like, and…and…and…it really really looks like it’s falling, you know, fast and junk. Must be free falling!’
QED…the government must have done it. These little (il)logical leaps are pretty much par for the course with the CT crowd. I guess we’ll see if the iron man wanders back in to shock and amaze us all with more blurry videos, ambiguous pictures and breathless comments from ‘structural engineers’ and other ‘experts’ who all know something was afoot on 9/11, but who are too afraid to publish their marvelous revelations in peer reviewed journals because they are afraid the black helicopters will be making a midnight visit to their humble abodes…
-XT
The CTs usually assign the blame to the President, the military, Dick Cheney, the Jews, or a New World Order. But I know the diabolical mastermind who was really behind this whole sordid operation. It was none other than…Gary Condit!
Hey, at least they’ve made one step forward. Back in 2006 when this whole 9/11 conspiracy thing was at its peak, they would often claim that the towers fell faster than freefall.
Yeah, but the space alien wombats using death beams and with rocket assist demolition theory kind of lost momentum when magic pony dust nano-thermite crowd gained ascendancy in the movement. Today, the few space alien adherents are in complete disorder as just about everyone who is anyone now knows The Truth™!!
Shame really…I actually thought the space alien wombat theory had a certain charm and elegance to it…
-XT
Has there been a good/plausible explanation for the witnesses accounts of multiple “secondary” explosions after the initial hits on the WTCs?
Certainly. Lot’s of stuff in an office building that can cause secondary explosions. Solvents, cleaning supplies, hell, even bottled water if it’s sealed and heated rapidly will explode. Then there is the fact that both buildings had significant diesel backup generators and the associated fuel bunkers for them and there is really no mystery as to why things might have exploded.
During the collapse you had floors pancaking into each other, which would have resulted in an explosive like release of air and debris (put some talcum powder on your hands and slap them together rapidly for a scaled down demo of this principal). This also accounted for the puffs you see in some of the shots as the building starts to gain momentum during the collapse. Again, there is really not much mysterious about any of this. Which, sadly, doesn’t seem to dampen the fervor of the CTers to any notable degree (although the Loose Change gurus seemed to be backpedaling on this, at least during the 2 hour show I saw on this a couple of months ago…though I doubt they have actually changed either of their videos or their web site to reflect this).
-XT
Heck, I remember early claims that there was no way a plane crash at floor 80 could tip over a fifty-ton press in the basement - it weighs fifty tons!
Except, of course, a “fifty-ton press” is a fairly commonplace industrial machine that can create a pressure of fifty tons. The machine itself comes in a variety of models and manufacturers and typically weighs somewhere in the 500-1000lb range. A couple of angry football players could tip it over.
I haven’t watched any of Dylan Avery’s fantasy fiction since the original, but apparently one of his more recent “cuts*” backed WAY off the claims made in previous editions, and his fans were telling people who were new to the whole mess to watch the earlier editions, because they were “more exciting.”
*I’m pretty sure it was Loose Change Recut Final Edition Redux 27: Dylan’s iPod Touch Totally Got Fucked Up at That Big Party Last Weekend and He Needs a New One
Let’s accept for the moment that all you CT Skeptics are right in believing what you have been told, do none of you think it circumspect to at least raise these issues of the potential perils of mass deception and disinformation?
If you can make it all the way through this thread and still believe that most people think the 9/11 conspiracy theories are bullshit because “we were told” to, you are beyond reason, beyond logic, and beyond discussion. The overwhelming evidence - from all the video footage of the attacks, the numerous expert reports about the collapse, the eyewitness accounts, the phone calls from those on board the planes, the video of Bin Ladin taking credit for the attacks, and lastly the sheer implausibility of a massive yet secret (and competent!) government conspiracy that would cover all of these other forms of evidence - speaks for itself.
“Raising these issues” requires application of critical thinking skills to the issues raised. Continuing to advocate wildly implausible theories in the face of overwhelming evidence is fighting for mass deception and disinformation rather than against.
We are not merely right in ‘believing what we are told’. We are right in evaluating the evidence that has been presented both on that day, as well as by experts who are relevant the fields in question, be they engineer, architect, DNA scientist, or whatever.
By comparison, the truth movement has given us zany tales, utter fantasies, outright lies in the name of ‘truth’, laughable physics, and experts who are a complete and utter joke.
This is not even close to being the case. This about a handful of kooks whose suggestions and ideas would cause one to live wrong.
Yeah, Loose Change: Final Cut was so bland it was practically what is referred to as LIHOP (let it happen on purpose as opposed to MIHOP, made it…you get the idea). It was so weak that most of the major 9/11 debunkers didn’t even really bother to make a full line-by-line debunking they way they had previous versions
His most recent efforts, Loose Change: An American Coup was just AVery’s Mom’s basement attempt at a fictional film.
It’s exactly that kind of fear of the unknown that drives me to keep my UFO Abduction Insurance premiums paid up because, hey, anything’s possible.
Personally, I think we must at least consider the possibility that those who are arguing that 9/11 was some sort of evil plot carried out by Genius Fool conspirators are, themselves, Jewish Lizard People who are trying to draw attention to 9/11 in order to distract us from their unrelated activities which were occurring at the same time. We wouldn’t want to let such a possibility go unexamined.