This right here might be the dumbest statement I’ve ever read on this board, and that is saying something.
Massive video coverage, both professional and amateur. Eyewitnesses seeing the planes hit the buildings. The verifiable deaths of actual people both in the buildings and on the planes. The actual analysis of debris and of structural plans by actual, you know, engineerings and other experts in the field. The actual buildings FALLING DOWN in front of us, live and in color.
These, as far as I know, fit the definition of “fact.”
Some of them are just foolish and not deranged. (And it’s probably not a public service; mostly it’s entertainment for the skeptics.) But that being said, I don’t think you have grounds to criticize anybody’s attitude in this discussion.
This is ridiculous and wrong. It’s like saying “Bodies in motion approach either other partly because of gravity, and partly because of magic. The laws of probably say the gravity theory can’t be all right!” Or “Light is sometimes a particle, sometimes a wave, and sometimes it’s ravioli.” “The center of the solar system is partly the Sun but it’s also sometimes the Earth, and other times the whole thing is a mobile over the bed of an alien child. The heliocentric theory can’t be ALL right! The odds are overwhelmingly against it!”
You’re half right. For people who believe in a shadowy conspiracy that used implausible means to create a counterfactual event for uncertain purposes… there are no easily available facts.
Who in this discussion hasn’t moved on? You and iron bender are asking everybody to rehash an easily explicable disaster that happened almost a decade ago.
And those things, what do you call 'em… facts.
Right: you assume there are different facts and a different truth, and that if we made the assumptions you’re making, we’d believe the same thing. What people here try to point out over and over again is that there’s no reason to make those assumptions in the first place. Most of them are nonsense.
All the suspicions have been addressed because there are so many available facts. The ones who keep dragging up “suspicions” without addressing the facts seem very much to be cranks.
But of coure there’s an overriding reason - since They must be telling us lies, there’s an alternate version(s) that is the truth, no matter how impossibly stupid it appears to those grounded in facts.
And some are revolting bigots. Of course, they might well be foolish and deranged at the same time.
Every single “conspiracy theory” I’ve seen has brought the government into the issue as being culpable and the reason being some nefarious “they” are in charge of all government, all the media, and all the banks. Care to guess who the “they” are? It’s all prejudice and there’s nothing else to it.
So, ivan, can you give us some idea of how long we’ll have to wait until you get lucky and actually come up with a verifiable fact? By your argument, it’s just a matter of time.
Mostly? Wait… there’s another possible reason?
It’s a bit like going to a boxing match between a gorilla and a quadruple amputee. It may not be savory, but it has its moments of high comedy.
Debating something unreasonable people do disagree on can be fun, though, until you start taking them seriously, in which case the fun evaporates very quickly. I gave it a shot with my “slow premise chain”, but even though ironbender agreed (as far as we got with it), it obviously had no effect. It doesn’t matter if he accepts that office fires could collapse the towers - that’s just a dead end waste of time for him that doesn’t get him to the conclusion he’s already decided on.
Do you think that if Obama had set up a task force with unlimited access to information which discovered that there were some very suspicious circumstances leading to this event, that he’d then disclose such news to the public, bearing in mind how divided your country is over less important issues? My guess is the problem would be sorted out “in-house”.
Now this is a rather old post, but since this thread is still active and I don’t believe the errors in it have been corrected, I must respond. If you’re talking about Amir Khadir, I don’t believe he’s a “converted” Muslim, seeing how he’s of Iranian origin (born in Tehran). But he also doesn’t seem like an especially devout Muslim, so his anti-Americanism and support for the Palestinian cause stem more from his leftist ethos than his Islamic ethos. And yes, he does believe in some 9/11 conspiracy theories, which makes me lose some respect for him. I probably wouldn’t vote for Québec Solidaire anyway (they’re much too left-wing), but this to me is a black mark on his character, for someone who’s otherwise a very interesting politician and person.
He’s also not exactly the leader of QS, that’d be Françoise David, but he is their vice- or co-leader and only MNA.
And if you’re talking about Lionel Groulx, while he was anti-semitic, I’ll have to ask for a cite that he supported Hitler because that doesn’t seem likely to me. (Believing Canada should not intervene in WWII doesn’t mean support for Hitler, by the way.) He also isn’t really a “national hero” (who really knows about him today?) and if he’s celebrated, it’s probably because of his work in historiography. Marcel Trudel, one of Quebec’s best and most well-known historians, says that he and all other post-WWII Quebec historians owe their career to Groulx, who decided after the war to break from the tradition of the Belle Histoire that tells a compelling story but isn’t very scientific and start a scientific history institute. Not everyone can, at 70 years old, decide that much of their previous work was kind of misguided and start again, and Trudel obviously has a lot of respect for Groulx for this reason.
You mean suspicious things like people learning to fly commercial airplanes without wanting to learn to land them? A declaration of war against Americans? The rise of jihadist leaders with a lot of experience in warfare against opponents that had superior resources? A repeated pattern of terror attacks against American targets? A previous attack on the World Trade Center? Intelligence analysis indicating that Bin Ladin was ramping up for a possible attack in the USA, including suspicions that planes might be hijacked?
All that and more is “information which discovered that there were some very suspicious circumstances leading to this event”. Unfortunately, it was skillfully suppressed by releasing it in something called “The 9-11 Commission Report”.
No, I’m talking about suspicious stuff that might incriminate people in the highest positions of authority in the land. Do you seriously think such information would be divulged openly, or at all, without the utmost of pressure being applied?
The highest positions of authority in the land have been incriminated repeatedly, just not in the way you wish. There were multiple breakdowns in communication, analysis and operations leading up to the attacks. If you haven’t noticed, failing to stop the attacks was blamed by many Democrats on President Bush while many Republicans have placed blame on President Clinton. In particular, Clinton is often blamed for failing to capture or kill Bin Ladin while Bush is often blamed for failing to heed warnings about impending attack.
Well, unless George W. Bush himself flew one of the planes (he is a trained pilot, after all), he must have had helpers. Probably a lot of helpers. In fact, he’d need a few hundred or a few thousand helpers to pull this off. Presumably, we eventually move from “the highest positions of authority” all the way down to the low-level stooge who represents some minor cog in the master plan.
Do you have any cog candidates in mind? That would be the place to start if one wants to expose the entire hypothetical conspiracy, or at least it always has been for actual conspiracies - find a low-level guy who is clearly guilty of something, get him to flip on his boss, who flips on his boss, etc.
The estimates I’ve seen have all ranged well into the thousands, or tens of thousands. In addition to the military, administration staff and anyone connected with the camps into which all the people on those missing airline flights must have been “disappeared”, we’ve got a bunch of people at the airlines and in air traffic control that had to be involved. The list is vast.
All that fantastic bomb technology, holographic deception, master planning and thousands of people all sworn to secrecy with no one spilling the beans, and then amateur Internet sleuths uncover the greatest conspiracy in history. It’s a marvel, I tells you.
I wish we weren’t confined to remote communication, so we could see ivan’s eyes glowing with the rapture of hidden knowledge as he types this stuff.
Sure - while everyone was agog over the revelations, he could sneak unlimited socialist legislation through Congress.
