911 hanging up on caller for swearing -- can they DO that?

[Ichini_Sanshigo]

@Starving_Artist

I don’t think that people here are so much disputing the claim that civility has diminished in the past few decades as they are saying “So what?”

In other words, they don’t care. It’s fine with them. Where they think stupidity comes in is in criticizing it, failing to realize that greater civility would make their own lives both safer and more pleasant.

I can’t believe I’m getting involved in this, but here goes.

A large part of the problem with this ongoing, board-wide brawl about the merits of the good ole days, I think, is the contention that things used to be more civil, and that society was better for it.

For the first assertion (things were more civil) we have little proof of that outside of anecdotal evidence. Also, the claim is too vague. Things were more civil when? And for whom? And in what ways? It seems that what you take for civility is actually a superficial layer of politeness over a society that was, by numerous statistics and personal accounts, worse than today’s society. Overt and institutionalized racism is a big one that’s been mentioned numerous times. Misogyny is another. Spousal abuse being more or less socially acceptable. And drugs, alcohol, profanity, and crime have always been around.

But even if you take that veneer of public decorum to be anything other than a facade, you still have to prove that people being superficially nice to each other makes for a better society. Racism, crime, disease, domestic abuse, pedophilia, rape, and other sexual abuses; these are all measurable bad aspects of society. They still exist. They’ve always existed. A major difference now is that without the suffocating layer of “civility” people are able to talk about these things. There’s more cynicism. There’s also less ignorance, and that’s a good thing.

I don’t know that I’d go so far to say society is better. I certainly don’t think it’s worse. Society is just… different. Overall, that difference is likely value neutral. There are improvements (kids being less afraid to tell someone about Uncle Bob’s bad touch), and there are some damages (reality TV), but that’s just the way things are.

But of course civility requires discipline and discipline is anathema to permissiveness. The entire purpose of permissiveness is for people to be able to act however they want and everyone else be damned. So when someone comes along saying that it would be better if things were more civil, they get laughed at and derided and called stupid, when what the problem really is is that the people doing the name-calling simply don’t want to have to exercise the discipline that would be required if they were to behave with more civility.

Starving Artist, I must disagree with you. It requires little to no discipline for me to be polite. It requires no effort at all for most people, unless they have some sort of anger management issues or personality disorder. maybe you’ve been watching too much Jerry Springer but honestly, most people are not like that. Changes in media and information flow make it seem like there’s a lot of rude, violent wackos out there, but half the people on TV are just playing for the cameras anyway. So I dispute your point that discipline (I take it to be synonymous with “self-control” in this instance) has much of anything to do with civility.

People who insist civility would make things better get derided because most of us realize what I mentioned above: civility is superficial. It is not a true reflection of society’s problems. It means little, an acting nice towards people you hate isn’t going to make you like them.

[ivan_astikov]

As valued as ‘civility’ is in modern society, some people still need a verbal slap across their faces to shake them out of the reverie of their own self-importance.

[Kimstu]

@Starving Artist

I don’t think that people here are so much disputing the claim that civility has diminished in the past few decades as they are saying “So what?”

In other words, they don’t care. It’s fine with them. Where they think stupidity comes in is in criticizing it, failing to realize that greater civility would make their own lives both safer and more pleasant.

I think you’re missing the point again. Nobody is disputing that casual use of verbal obscenities like “fuck” is more prevalent and accepted now than it used to be. What we (or some of us, at least) are disputing is your superficial assumption that less cussing = more civility.

There are various ways in which society has grown more civil since the 1950s: for example, sexist and racist jokes are much less acceptable in polite society now than they were then. But since you grew up with the earlier mores, you naturally accepted them as something that wasn’t intrinsically shocking, so you just don’t perceive them as “uncivil”.

@Shodan

In one case at least, they are disputing the the claim that violent crime increased during the sixties by saying that it decreased during the 90s - shortly after the Republicans took control of Congress for the first time since 1969. (Correlation isn’t causality and all that.)

While I’m grateful that somebody bothered to read the evidence that I took the trouble to look up (and which Starving Artist apparently remained completely oblivious to), you seem to have missed the point somewhat as well.

No, the decrease in violent crime starting in the 90’s doesn’t contradict the claim that violent crime increased in the 60’s, and I never said it did (and it’s either a little dense or a little dishonest of you to suggest that I did). What it does contradict, however, is Starving Artist’s assumption that “liberal permissiveness” explains increases in violent crime.

Because, as Starving Artist is never tired of telling us, the sort of “liberal permissiveness” that he so deplores is just as rampant today (if not more so: gay marriage! teenagers saying “fuck”! legal abortions!) as it was in the 60’s. Yet violent crime has been decreasing steadily for a number of years now. Clearly, SA’s attempt to link the two phenomena causally is full of holes, to say the least.

@Starving Artist

So when someone comes along saying that it would be better if things were more civil, they get laughed at and derided and called stupid, when what the problem really is is that the people doing the name-calling simply don’t want to have to exercise the discipline that would be required if they were to behave with more civility.

A perfect example of this can be seen in all the wailing and hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth that went on around here simply because Ed Zotti decided to put a stop to vulgar name-calling in the Pit.

“Perfect example”? On the contrary, this is a stupid example, and doesn’t at all support the point you’re trying to make.

The Pit was traditionally a designated “anything-goes” zone where verbal uncouthness of all kinds, including vulgar name-calling, was explicitly accepted. There have always been designated outlets for filth and vulgarity, even (or perhaps especially) in the most prudishly conventional societies. In your beloved 1950s, for example, there were numerous pornographic publications and other “underground” literature that filled the same role, and you can bet that many otherwise polite people would have bitched loud and long if their editors had decided to ban things like vulgar name-calling from their pages.

Similarly, many people who didn’t like the new Pit rules have always been perfectly happy to abide by the rules requiring stricter civility in other forums such as GD and GQ.

So no, you are entirely wrong that the complaints about the Pit rule changes reflect a society incapable of respecting or conducting polite discourse. All they reflect is the fact that many people who value polite discourse also value having certain venues where the politeness rules don’t apply.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Starving_Artist

A perfect example of this can be seen in all the wailing and hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth that went on around here simply because Ed Zotti decided to put a stop to vulgar name-calling in the Pit. The mere idea that people might have to discipline themselves rather than blurt out the first obscenity that comes to mind resulted in innumerable ATMB protest threads, two spin-off boards and the defection of many prolific longtime posters.

I would say the problem is that people *weren’t *being asked to discipline themselves; quite the opposite, a choice which was in the hands of each particular person was being taken out of their hands. Discipline was now to come from others, not themselves.

IOW, not a matter of increasing personal responsibility, but declaring that we as a board had failed at it and taking choice away from us all based on the actions of a few. I’m surprised it’s something you’d support, in all honesty.

[CrazyCatLady]

Two things: First, it is absolutely outrageous for someone to have to call 911 three times to get help; nobody is going to be calm and polite after that, regardless of age or life experience. Second, aggression and focusing on irrelevancies are both very common coping mechanisms for people in emergencies, which a cop who’s been on the job longer than a few months should know quite well.

When you add these together, I have to put the blame here solely on the cop. I’d be angry and irrational and uncivil too if it took me six minutes to get through to 911 while my daddy was seizing the whole time, and I’m a grown woman with EMT training and years of experience dealing with veterinary emergencies. If anything, I’d be even more upset because I understand how bad a situation it is for someone to seize that long, and I’d know that every second I spent waiting for some lazy dickhead on the other end to deign to pick up is time I can’t be making sure Dad doesn’t further injure himself, as well as valuable time out of the golden hour.

And the only acceptable response to “I need a fucking ambulance” is the same as it is to “My fucking dog is fucking dying” or “I have this Westie, and he’s five, and actually he’s my mom’s dog but he lives with us while she’s repainting her kitchen, and there’s something wrong with him.”

“Okay, ma’am, what exactly is going on?” That is the only acceptable response. No railing about someone’s language, no berating them about how you don’t need a bunch of irrelevant crap about her mom’s kitchen, just a focus on what is actually important, which is finding out what’s happening so you know how best to help. If you can’t do that, you have no business working in any sort of emergency services. None.

[enipla]

@CrazyCatLady

If you can’t do that, you have no business working in any sort of emergency services. None.

I couldn’t agree more. But sadly, this cop will probably be simply put back on the street where he can deal with emergencies face to face.

[Guinastasia]

I find it amusing that Starving Artist seems to be blaming all this loss of civility and crudeness on the liberals…and yet, I don’t recall Al Gore or Joe Biden telling Patrick Leahy to “go fuck himself” on the floor of the Senate. :dubious:

[SteveG1]

@Starving_Artist

Outside of the occasional newspaper comic strip, no teenager of those days would be caught dead saying any of that. (And btw, I think what you’re looking for is “Jiminy Cricket” or “Gee, willikers”, not “Jimminy jillickers”.)

It would more likely have been along the line of “Yes! Hello!..I think my dad’s having a heart attack! Please send an ambulance! The address is 1234 Hawthorne Ln.!”

See? Panicky, but quick, concise and to the point, and yet somehow not a vulgarity in sight. How did they ever do it?

Of course we had racism back then…:rolleyes:

I guess we live in different worlds. Having been born and raised in a Sicilian family in New York, it would have probably been more like:

I need an ambulace a (fill in the blanks) Avenue (this town). Heart attack. Hurry.
What do you mean hold? I been hung up on 3 times already. No YOU hold. Send a fucking ambulance NOW. Don’t tell ME to watch my fucking language, send a fucking AMBULANCE. NOW!

Vulgarity is sometbhing that happens when people are scared or angry. The dispatcher and the police fucked up. I doubt Miss manners would give a flying fuck about the weather or the salad fork or anything else, if her father was having a stroke or heart attack and was not getting any help. Someone is dying, you want help NOW and fuck the niceties.

[SteveG1]

@Shodan

I can;t believe it is rare for people calling 911 to swear.

Plus the cop flat-out lied when he told the dispatcher that he couldn’t get thru the caller’s comments to get the details. He started lecturing her - if he had said “What is the emergency?” instead of talking down to her or hanging up on her, he could have had the details in a minute flat.

This is 911. You don’t get to hang up on a caller if they don’t say pretty please.

Yes, the girl said a lot of stupid stuff about suing, and swore. She is seventeen, and her father is lying on the floor after being released from the hospital and brain surgery. Shouldn’t the person supposedly trained in handling emergencies be able to redirect the conversation towards getting the details he is supposed to, and not lecturing a frantic teenager on her phone manners?

Come on.

I usually bend over backwards to try to give the po-pos the benefit of the doubt. But this is well over the line. It is unreasonable to expect people who call 911 to be at their rational best when they need an ambulance.

Sheesh. Gosh golly and jeepers.

Regards,
Shodan

This. People are not rational or in control when they are panicking. The dispatcher had a job to do and didn’t do it.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

One you assume she’d be acting logical in a scary situation.

She doesn’t sound scared to me; she sounds pissed off.

Two the threat of a lawsuit was prolly meant to scare the dickhead 911 guy into sending help. It has a certain logic to it.

So she can act logical in a scary situation?

911’s job is to send help

Yes, it is, and I’ve never written anything in defense of the 911 operator, whose behaviour was unprofessional in the extreme. One of the links in this thread reported he’d been suspended without pay and retrained, which sounds appropriate to me (as opposed to some suggestions to simply fire the guy or encourage him to crawl into a dumpster and shoot himself, but heck, ranting is what the Pit is for).

She, regardless, is an idiot.

[The_Tao_s_Revenge]

@Bryan_Ekers

She doesn’t sound scared to me; she sounds pissed off.

Because the asshole keeps hanging up on her while her father is dieing. I’d be mad too. Wouldn’t you be? Anger mixed with frustrated fear can be the strongest kind.

How you could you not be mad and afraid? 911 is refusing to send help while your dad is dieing.

So she can act logical in a scary situation?

Apparently. Question . Do you expect her to use bullet proof logic that self righteous twits on the internet can’t nit pick?

Yes, it is, and I’ve never written anything in defense of the 911 operator, whose behaviour was unprofessional in the extreme. One of the links in this thread reported he’d been suspended without pay and retrained, which sounds appropriate to me (as opposed to some suggestions to simply fire the guy or encourage him to crawl into a dumpster and shoot himself, but heck, ranting is what the Pit is for).

She, regardless, is an idiot.

Unprofessional? It’s worse then that. He put her father’s life in grave danger.

What if her father had massive blood loss, or an electrical accident? What if it had been a stroke or heart attack?

It’s a federal crime to tamper with the mail. What this guy did was much worse then that. He tampered with the availability of vital emergency services for his own stupid power trip. He knowingly put someone’s life at extreme risk for no good reason.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Because the asshole keeps hanging up on her while her father is dieing. I’d be mad too. Wouldn’t you be? Anger mixed with frustrated fear can be the strongest kind.

I don’t see any fear in the third call, frustrated or otherwise. Lots of anger, though.

Apparently. Question . Do you expect her to use bullet proof logic that self righteous twits on the internet can’t nit pick?

I wouldn’t know, not being a self righteous twit. Ask Starving Artist.

Unprofessional? It’s worse then that. He put her father’s life in grave danger.

Well, feel free to use whatever adjective suits you. You seem upset that I’m not more upset at the cop’s actions. What he did was wrong; I never stated or implied otherwise. I simply point out that she’s an idiot.

[The_Tao_s_Revenge]

@Bryan_Ekers

I don’t see any fear in the third call, frustrated or otherwise. Lots of anger, though.

Different life experiences I guess. Some people are taught you must get mad and and stand up for yourself and other people. If that kind of attitude bothers you stay the fuck away from New England. It’s a cultural thing.

The 911 operator starts off the situation by hanging up on her for cussing while she thinks she’s on hold.

I wouldn’t know, not being a self righteous twit. Ask Starving Artist.

Haha right after I ask the ocean what it’s like being rather damp.

I simply point out that she’s an idiot.

Or still a kid. Which is kind of the point.
And I think people who state their opinions as facts are the real idiots.

Question about the operator. Was he arrested? Because he recklessly endangered her dad’s life; which seems quiet a bit worse then a few bad words which the girl was arrested for.

[Red_Barchetta]

@Bryan_Ekers

I don’t see any fear in the third call, frustrated or otherwise. Lots of anger, though.

Well, I for one am glad you have such insight based on mere voice samples. I’m sure she wasn’t frightened at all of seeing her dad seizure helplessly on the floor for SIX MINUTES without aid. Who would be, right? I mean, if she didn’t sound scared (subjectively, I might add), that means she CAN’T be scared!

[Bryan_Ekers]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Different life experiences I guess.

You don’t know anything about this woman’s life experiences, beyond that her father has some health problems.

If that kind of attitude bothers you stay the fuck away from New England. It’s a cultural thing.

Huh, and to think all those times I went to Vermont to buy inexpensive cream cheese, I was entering a hotbed of passion. Clearly I’ll need to start bringing a gun, lest the “culture” rise up and smite me with the awesomeness of its attitude.

Or still a kid. Which is kind of the point.

I don’t get the slightest impression it would make any difference to the Recreational Outragers here if instead of 17, she was 30 or 40.

And I think people who state their opinions as facts are the real idiots.

And you’re perfectly welcome to that opinion, idiot.

Question about the operator. Was he arrested? Because he recklessly endangered her dad’s life; which seems quiet a bit worse then a few bad words which the girl was arrested for.

I only see what was reported in the links associated with this thread, one of which said he was suspended without pay. For all I know, the girl hunted the cop down and tortured him to death while taunting him with a telephone dangling just out of reach, or locked him in a room with the power to dial 911 if he could take a scalpel and carve the cellphone out his own intestine, or some other Saw-inspired fantasy.

If you want to shoot up the heady drug of Recreational Outrage, there’s no shortage of pushers in this thread.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Red_Barchetta

Well, I for one am glad you have such insight based on mere voice samples. I’m sure she wasn’t frightened at all of seeing her dad seizure helplessly on the floor for SIX MINUTES without aid. Who would be, right? I mean, if she didn’t sound scared (subjectively, I might add), that means she CAN’T be scared!

Well, this is her chance to mature a little.
Yours, too.

[Red_Barchetta]

@Bryan_Ekers

Well, this is her chance to mature a little.
Yours, too.

While her Dad’s potentially dying? That’s a great time to mature, based on some cop’s subjective opinion of curse words?

Do you actually read what you type?

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Red_Barchetta

Do you actually read what you type?

Well, I’m occasionally careless about letting typos get through. My Google toolbar, with its spell-check, keeps disappearing for some reason.

[Guinastasia]

@Bryan_Ekers

She doesn’t sound scared to me; she sounds pissed off.

Sometimes my dad acts royally pissed off when he’s scared, or when there’s an emergency. It’s not that he’s “an idiot”, or “uncivilized”, it’s just how he reacts.

Fear manifests itself in different ways.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Guinastasia

Sometimes my dad acts royally pissed off when he’s scared, or when there’s an emergency. It’s not that he’s “an idiot”, or “uncivilized”, it’s just how he reacts.

Fear manifests itself in different ways.

Definitely, Guin. Some people express fear as anger. It’s not uncommon. It’s not always the BEST way, but we are talking about life or death situations, not some tea party.