.999 = 1?

No, it is not a truth. It does not become truth by saying it is true.You are just
assuming it is true. You need to prove it true.
1≈0.9999…is a truth.
Proof:

1/2.9 ≈0.3
1/2.99 ≈0.33
1/2.999 ≈0.333
1/2.9999 ≈0.3333
1/2.99999 ≈0.33333
1/2.999999 ≈0.333333
1/2.9999999 ≈0.3333333
.
.
.
1/2.999999999… ≈0.33333333333…

Assume next that 3=2.9999999…
so that 1/3 = 1/2.999999… ≈ 0.333333333…
because of the assumption that 3=2.9999999…

The result, 1 divided by 3:

1/3 ≈ 0.333333333…

This was a proof by assumption. It was assumed that 3=2.999999… is true. Similarly one can assume that 1=0.9999999…
But assuming 1=0.9999999…does not make it true.

Furthermore:
Solve x in the equation:
-1 + x = 0

Answer x=1
x=0.99999…is not a solution to -1+x=0
Furthermore:
1=1.0000000…
1≠0.9999999…
because every digit is different

How many proofs do you need?

One would do it.
You have yet to provide it.

I don’t understand these steps in Post #1559:

If you’re trying to prove 0.999… ≠ 1, then you can’t say 0.333… x 3 = 1.

Note moreover that
1≠1
because every atom in the ink(*) in the left 1 is different from the atoms in the right 1.

(* - Yes, I know nobody’s going to print this onto paper and ink. But I’m an old geezer and insist on the paper/ink metaphor. :eek: )

Ones that are meaningful. These are not. As I said before, you don’t seem to understand how proofs are constructed or how they work. This constant idea that the digits have to be different is something of your own invention. Nice idea, and works a lot of the time. But not always true. Things just go around in circles.

0.99999… is notation for 9x10[sup]-1[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-2[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-3[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-4[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-5[/sup] + …

This is by definition. If you want to prove something, try sticking to this definition, and stop making up ideas about what is required for equality that are not part of well understood mathematics.

Equality over the real numbers is well defined. And it does not involve expressing a number a decimal and comparing digits. It involves showing that the difference between the two numbers is zero.

It appears that a lot of the issues with 0.9999… are coming from an unstated, and probably dimly realised point of view that the only numbers that “exist” are the rationals. This gets us back to the ancient Greeks. They were really upset when √2 was discovered. For much the same reasons I suspect. But almost all real numbers are irrational. That isn’t something that can be debated. Building the real numbers so that it can accept all these irrational numbers has, amongst other things, the result that there are no infinitesimals with a value other than zero. And 0.999… then equals 1.
As to mathematics as an experimental science - well as expressed many times above - it isn’t. It is much more rigorous. The way I like to explain the rigour and the power is this.

We can define the integers with just five axioms - the Peano axioms. Once we have them, we can define a few useful operations that make these numbers interesting and useful. Addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Very quickly we get a few interesting results. The integers are not closed under division. 1/2 isn’t an integer. But we can also prove a few things. We can define the idea of odd and even numbers, and show that the sum of two odd numbers is never odd. This isn’t something that is subject to experiment. You can’t go out and keep looking for a pair of odd numbers that do sum to another odd number. We know you will never find them.

Similarly we can note that some numbers are equal to a group of other numbers all multiplied together. So we can define the notion of factors, and factorisation over the integers. All still based on only the Peano five axioms. Similarly we can note that some numbers are not so factorisable, and we can define the notion of prime and composite numbers. So, is there a limit to the number of prime numbers? Again, this isn’t something done by experiment. There is no point searching for the largest one. We can prove, from a basis of just those five axioms that there is no largest prime, and indeed they go on forever.

And my favourite. We can note that any integer can be expressed as a product of a group of prime numbers. So, is there more than one way to pick a group of primes to multiply together to obtain an integer? This is the unique prime factorisation theorem. And the answer is that no, you cannot find more than one way of factorising any integer into a group of primes (ignoring trivial reordering.) You can prove this. There is no point going out to try to find an integer that has more than one prime factorisation, no matter how hard or long you look, you will not find one. Absolute. No wiggle room. There is no point even trying once.

That’s only true for positive integers … just saying …

This was never disputed:
9x10[sup]-1[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-2[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-3[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-4[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-5[/sup] + … = 0.99999…

what is disputed is:
9x10[sup]-1[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-2[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-3[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-4[/sup] + 9x10[sup]-5[/sup] + …=1.00000…

If there are no infinitesimals with a value other than zero then 1=0.9999…
But I as I have shown there is an infinitesimal x between infinity and the limit of
infinity.
I asked here what is the value of the limit of infinity?
I was told that it is equal to ∞
I know that it is a wrong answer.
Therefore I know you are wrong.
Think about a new situation in mathematics where there is only addition
(corresponding to a situation where there is only multiplication by 1),
things exist only in a singular form, there are no multiples, no plurality caused by
multiplication.
For example, if you got an apple, you can’t assume that there are 2 apples
because to get them you would have to multiply the first apple, but you
are not allowed to do it. Therefore if you got the largest number Z you cannot
have 2Z , therefore it is not allowed to write for example that 2Z=Z+Z.
This is some kind of minimum principle, there is only one of every thing existing,
therefore,there is only one Z and there is only one 1, their sum is equal
to infinity, which is the singularity, existing at an unoccupied location of the number line,
the true emptiness . You can get to ∞ only by addition, because by definition,
addition increases the value of number into which addition is made. Multiplication of Z
by any number does not get you to ∞. For this reason, it makes no sense to say that 2Z is larger than Z.
For this reason only
Z + 1 = ∞ is true

Things like
Z + 2 = Z +1+1= ∞, Z + Z = ∞, Z = 10[sup]Z[/sup] etc etc. all violate the principle of minimum and are therefore false. Some kind of opposite principle,
the principle of abundance, creates all these false formulas but they are artificial
with little or no meaning.

That makes absolutely zero sense, it’s just a bunch of silly half sentences that prove nothing.

No- you are missing the point that in addition to there being only one of something, there can also be none of it. There is no Z. Whatever system you are trying to come up with - it isn’t the real numbers. The reals don’t contain any Z at all, and there is no unoccupied location. None. Everything you write violates one of the axioms that describes the reals. Until you understand what an axiom is, and that violating one simply nullifies everything else, you are wasting your time.

A number of us have provided solid proofs of how this Z violates the axiom of closure. However it seems you still don’t get how proofs are constructed. Those proofs you offer are not proofs, and yet when real proofs are offered you ignore them, or simply don’t want to understand. It isn’t as if there is anything difficult here. Almost any high school student of mathematics should be able to work through this.

Infinity doesn’t have a numerical value. It is always wrong to include infinity in an Algebraic or arithmetic statement. You’ve not really demonstrated an understanding of what a limit is in the first place, so any answer to that question will also not be understood by you.

What is the difference between 1 and 0.999… ?

…Whoosh?

Wrong. Math is not science. Nothing in mathematics has to relate to reality, and there are no “experiments” in mathematics - only axioms and proofs. This is why you end up with things like, well, this:

You neither understand the math you’re butchering nor the basic qualities of mathematics. Your errors are multitude and fundamental in nature.

If you would acknowledge
simple existing math proof
that 4 harmonic corner days
rotate simultaneously around
squared equator and cubed
Earth, proving 4 Days,** Not**
1Day,1Self,1Earth or 1God
that exists only as **anti-side.
This page you see - cannot
exist without its anti-side
existence, as +0- antipodes.
Add +0- as One = nothing. **

I think you finally found the bottom of the internet.

Algorithms.

Where do they exist?

Where does your mind exist?

In the real world…the finite real world.

Your mind is a finite projection of your finite brain.

A finite neural network which results in a finite set of permutations of thoughts.

So how is that we can conceive of, yet not understand infinity?
81[.0111…]^2 < .01 ?
[.0111…][.0111…] < .000123456789 + .000000000091/81
.000123456789… < .000123456789… + .000…00091/81

Pick your algorithm, do the math, arrive at a result.

The infinitely precise answer require an infinite amount of iteration.

You may stop when you see the emergence of a pattern.

But how much emergence does it take to say the pattern repeats forever?

Recursion.

We can understand the concept of infinity much easier through the concept of infinite recursion because it is a finite way of understanding infinity.

We can think of an infinitesimal as Zeno’s paradox (which is constructed of finite intervals)

Conceiving and attempting to define a largest integer is much much harder.

Hehe, nothing like the R word to bring a hush to a conversation. (even a math discussion where one would think it could be discussed openly and freely)

What is it about the concepts of recursion, infinite recursion, recursive iteration etc. ?

Yes, these principles are strongly tied to cryptography but we aren’t infringing on national security and the NSA’s multi-billion dollar installation that just went online in 2013 by discussing Sierpinski triangles and eating Romensco broccoli are we?

I mean WTF gives with this “System Halt” every time the topic of recursion is brought up?

Stupid video you linked to denies the paradox of Zeno, telling us that
1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + … does in fact get to 1, and isn’t always stuck at an increasingly small distance away from 1.

0.999… = 1 is just a flavour of Zeno’s Paradox: to cross a distance of 1 metre we must first cross 9/10 of a metre, then 9/10 of what remains, and so on. In fact it is the sum:

0.9 + 0.09 +0.009+ 0.0009 + … which empirically we know to be 1 (because we can traverse a metre).

That is to say empirically we know 0.999… = 1

So, there’s your empirisim, lifted from your link. Perhaps now you can admit that you are wrong.

Proof for .999… ≠ 1
Assume .999… = 1

Use this assumption via substitution to arrive at a clearly
erroneous result by applying the axioms of the system within the system

3 x .111… = .333…

=> 1/3 = .111…/.333…

1/3 = .1 + .0111…

.333…


The key step, square both sides


1/9 = [.1 + .0111…]^2

[333…]^2




1/9 = [.1 + .0111…][.1 + .0111…]

[.333…]^2


Cross Multiply

[.333…][.333…] = 9[.01 + .00111… + .00111… + [.0111…]^2]

[.333…][.333…] = .09 + 9x .00222… + 9x [.0111…]^2
Multiply through by 3

[.333…] = .27 + 27 x .002222… + 27 x [.0111…]^2

Multiply through by 3 again

1 = .81 + 81 x .00222… + 81 x [.0111…]^2
α = 81[.0111…]^2
1 = .81 + .18 + α
Show that α is less than .01
81[.0111…]^2 < .01
From this point on it is necessary to consider BOTH what is going on conceptually
AND practically via the use of multiplication and division algorithms.

The division of .01/81 requires the use of a division algorithm as it is not immediately apparent
what the answer could be…that is, it is not known a priori to have a finite decimal representation
such as 1/2 = .5. I assert that any algorithm used to arrive at a decimal representation for .01/81 will have
a remainder which can not be seen as clearly converging to zero…thus it can not be discarded.

The multiplication of .0111… by itself can be approximated and expanded iteratively via various algorithms
but it is clear that any form of multiplication will NOT result in any remainder.
The iterative process of multiplying .0111… by itself and dividing .01 by 81, if run in parallel, and if stopped
at ANY point in the iterative process, will always show the emergence of a pattern which clearly shows that
the left side is ALWAYS less than the right side due to the exist of a remainder from the division process which
CANNOT be seen as converging to zero due to its periodic nature.

[.0111…][.0111…] < .000123456789 + .000000000091/81
Halting the parallel iteration at the beginning of repetition of the integer counting sequence gives.
.000123456789 < .000123456789 + .000000000091/81

So ANY iterative real world process shows that

81[.0111…]^2 < .01

and therefore

.999… ≠ 1

Where PRECISELY does the video DENY that Zeno’s conjecture is a paradox?

It does NO SUCH THING. It states that it is a paradox and attempts to explain how the paradox can be resolved by changing it conceptually.

Ok… I’ve picked an algorithm and done the math and concluded that [.0111…][.0111…] = .000123456789 + .000000000091/81.

I’m often very happy to talk about recursion. It’s a topic near and dear to me.

I don’t think your mention of recursion is the reason people are reluctant to continue your discussion.