A bit of a religeous question....confused??

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No. Jews disregard the New Testament in toto.

Zev Steinhardt

Mazza,

To clarify the usage of the word “orthodox”:[list=1][li]orthodox - From the Greek, means “true belief”. When referring to Christian belief, refers to that set of beliefs common to most Christians at most times (as in C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity)[/li][li]Orthodox (Christian) - The Eastern Churches, such as Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox. Many common beliefs and practices with the Western (Roman) Catholic Church, but separated from Rome since the 11th century C.E…[/li][li]Orthodox (Jew) - Branch of Judaism which seeks to keep the whole of the Law, with the exception of Temple worship after the destruction of the third temple by the Romans in the first century C.E. (Zev, have I oversimplified or is this basically correct?)[/li][/list=1]And, while Zev has already answered the issue of Orthodox Jews and the New Testament, I would submit that there have been a number of Jewish scholars who see in Jesus a teacher whose ethical pronouncements found in the New Testament have value for rabbinical Judaism. That is not to say they accept the Christian view of Jesus, of course.

Close enough. :slight_smile:

Well, yes and no. Things such as “love your neighbor” are hard to argue with, regardless of who says them. Other things Jesus has said, however, would fail to pass muster within Judaism.

Zev Steinhardt

mazza:

Not at all. I hope I didn’t convey offense, I was merely attempting to inform.

And the others have, it seems, clarified your understanding of what “Orthodox” means in the different contextx of Judaism and Eastern Christianity.

JohnM:

Just a nitpicky clarification: that was the second Temple that was destroyed by the Romans; there has not yet been a third.

Chaim Mattis Keller

Nitpicky clarification of of Zev’s “Close enough”: We do seek to keep the whole of the Law. Lack of Temple worship is not an exception to that, but it is in keeping with the Law since we do not have a proper Temple at the current time. There are many reasons why the Third Temple has not been built yet, but that’s another discussion.

cmkeller,

Mea culpa on the third Temple mistake. I had just read Zev’s thread that referred to the American fundamentalists who are trying to breed a pure red heifer so that the priests could be cleansed in preparation for rebuilding the temple, and got my numbers confused.

Keeve,

Thanks for the clarification. So, would a more accurate one-liner definition of Orthodox Judaism be:[ul][li]Orthodox (Jew) - Branch of Judaism which seeks to keep the whole of the Law; the current lack of Temple worship is in keeping with the Law, since there has been no Temple since the destruction of the second Temple by the Romans in 70 C.E.[/li][/ul]This may be a hijack, but since I have the attention of Zev/Keeve/CMKeller, I have a question regarding the possible reinstatement of Temple worship at some future date.

While the most obvious problem with building the third Temple is the presence of the Dome of the Rock on the site, wouldn’t an even more difficult problem be that of finding men with a proven Aaronic lineage?

No, for two reasons:

(1) There are many people today who can identify themselves as kohanim (of Aaronic lineage). Granted, there are some halachic authorities who state that today’s kohanim are of doubtful status. But there are others that do not hold that.

(2) Even if today’s kohanim are of doubtful status, there is yet another answer. There is a tradition (based on the end of the book of Malachi) that the prophet Elijah will come before the messiah. He will point out who is a kohen and who is not (as well as answer other questions that may arise and need answering – such as the precise location of the Altar).

Zev Steinhardt

Zev,

Thanks for the information. Post-posting, I did a google and found one web site (fundamentalist Christian in perspective, I believe), that was touting the possibility of using DNA to verify the kohanim. While my upbringing was conservative Protestant, I can’t say that I ever got behind the idea of hastening the end of the world.

I hope this doesn’t offend, but SatireWire has an absolutely hilarious story this week.

GOD NAMES NEXT “CHOSEN PEOPLE”; IT’S JEWS AGAIN
“Oh Shit,” Say Jews

Good Grief, just when I thought I was getting a better understanding someone hijacks my brains with this third Temple.
What is this about?
If you are fed with answering me you can give me some links to read up on…

One more question though…
Do all religions believe in the one God - albeit under a different name? Hindu’s excepted…
I mean the Quoran is basically the Old Testament isn’t it ? and don’t the Jews hold faith with the Old Testament also?

There have been two temples in Jerusalem, both destroyed. It is the belief of many Jews and Christians that prior to the coming of the Messiah (or return, if you’re Christian) the Temple will be rebuilt and Temple worship reinstituted. Some Christian fundamentalists, in the interest of hastening the Second Coming, are working actively towards preparations for the rebuilding of the temple.

Followers of Judaism, Islam and Christianity are sometimes referred to as “The People of the Book”, recognizing their common worship of the God revealed in the Old Testament. The Quran is not the OT, but does contain many OT stories.

As to whether all religions worship the one God, outside of the monotheistic traditions listed above, there is certainly some doubt on this point in a formal sense. But, to quote again from the Cathlic Catechism :

There are religions which have no divine entity even resembling the creator-god of the Judaic, Christian, or Muslim traditions. While it can be argued (and in fact some do argue) that these other religions are worshipping difference faces of the same divinity, most people do not take this position.

There are far more than four religions in the world. In today’s pluralistic society, it would behoove you to at least become familiar with some of them so as to avoid accidentially making offensive statements such as “Don’t all religions (Hindus excepted) worship the same god?” Hindu is a damn big exception (nearly 1 billion adherents), and the “leftovers” that don’t fall in the Big Three (Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) still collectively number well over 1 billion (although admittedly a substantial part of that billion includes “agnostic/atheist/nonreligious”).

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Sorry, but one more minor nitpick: In Judaism, the messiah will come first, then the Temple will be rebuilt.

Zev Steinhardt

(And Buddhism doesn’t even have a god.)
mazza, an earlier thread that dealt with a number of your questions (to no one’s satisfaction, of course, but with a lot of good information) was A question on Christianity & Judaism.

mazza:

Very simple: there have been two Jewish Holy Temples in history: the first was built by King Solomon approximately 842 BCE and destroyed by the Babylonians under King Nebucadnezzar in 422 BCE (many say the date of destruction was actually in 586 BCE), and the second was built under the authority of the Persian King Cyrus in 352 BCE (those who date the destruction of the first to 586 BCE say the second was built in 516 BCE) and destroyed by the Romans under Emperor Vespasian in the year 70. Jews (and, it seems, some Christians - didn’t know that until JohnM mentioned it just now) expect that the Messiah will arrive at some time in the future and build a third one, never to be destroyed.

No. Only Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Sikhism are monotheistic. In addition to Hinduism, Shinto (the Japanese religion) and many African and Native American tribal religions are polytheistic. Buddhism, I think, does not believe in any diety.

Jews indeed hold with the Old Testament. Muslims do not - the Quran is not the Old Testament, it is different. I do not know exactly what Muslims think of the Old and New Testaments, but clearly they do not consider it to be divine truth. For one thing, Muslims believe it was Ishmael whom Abraham offered up on the mountain rather than Isaac.

Chaim Mattis Keller

They see them as corrupted revelations. The texts are seen as corruptions, either purposely or accidentaly, of actual teachings.

Fascinating.

The simplest explanation is that the Bible is, for the Christian, not a lawbook but a guidebook for finding Christ and in Him one’s salvation. For the Jews it remains a lawbook – because it records the laws under which God told them to live. (Seven of which are binding on Gentiles as well, according to Jewish understanding.) For many conservative people who call themselves Christian, the laws of the Bible remain valid “in a moral sense” – meaning that the dietary and ceremonial laws given to the Jews are not but the moral strictures are. But, for all Christians, as Paul said, “we are free from the Law.” This has to do with Jesus having fulfilled the entire Law through His sacrifice of Himself, bringing both Jews and Gentiles into a child/father relationship with God.

One quick thought: It’s not strictly true that the Jews do not have a New Testament – it’s merely that they don’t think it’s been written yet. But when Messiah comes… :wink:

The idea that the Messiah will write another book is something I daydream about occasionally. Oh, to know which seemingly major events of these millenia were not worth mentioning, and which seemingly minor details changed the whole flow of history…

(PS: I don’t recall ever seeing anything in Jewish tradition about whether or not the Messiah is expected to write yet another book. Such a perfected world would not need one, I’d think. Still, the idea is tantalizing.)

Technically, there was a third Temple, begun under Herod the Great in 20 BCE, & finished in 63 CE–seven years before Titus levelled the whole city.
http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/MiddleEast/HerodTemple.html

As to the OP. The thing is, those dietary restrictions were Jewish, & seen by the Jews as specific to their own people–not rules for all men. Christianity as a religion is “catholic”–for all mankind, Jewish or not. The early leaders of the Christian church, who were Jews, decided that non-Jewish Christians didn’t have to become Jews to become Christians, and therefore didn’t have to keep the parts of the Law that were only for Jews.

There’s more to the history of it than that, obviously, but that’s a simple way of putting it.

I have a few questions for Zev and any other Orthodox Jews who wish to answer.

How do you feel about the fundamentalist Christian involvement in the whole Third Temple/Messiah situation?

Do you feel that it’s a very condescending thing for them to somehow feel that you folks need help getting the scenario moving because you’re not moving fast enough for them? I mean, what…Israeli Jews can’t breed cattle right?

And does the fact that the Messiah that they’re waiting for (and waiting for you folks to finally realize the “truth” about) is completely different in nature, goals, and personality from the Messiah that you’re waiting for anger, annoy, or just generally irk you?

Oh, and does the fact that your only real role in the whole thing (for them) is to realize how wrong you all were for so many centuries and fall on your faces to prove them right cause any irritation?

Thanks.

jayjay

foolsguinea:

Herod massively renovated the Temple, but did not actually destroy and rebuild it.

jayjay:

We’ll take all the help we can get. G-d works through many agents, often human ones.

See above.

Just speaking personally, not at all. Why should it? I already know we disagree.

Again, speaking personally…no, bemusement, because, well, I think they’re the ones who’ll be surprised by the outcome. ;j

Chaim Mattis Keller