A Challenge to Modern Liberals Regarding their Fealty to the Principles they Espouse

Hi everyone,

I am a new member on these forums and I registered because I am very curious to get your reaction to my opinion that modern liberalism has completely betrayed the best interests of their constituents. I am a liberal in the classical sense and a progressive as defined by a desire to unshackle human kind from the chains of tradition and fealty to outmoded conservative ideas. The goal of political action should be to overthrow the oligarchy and established order that has variously oppressed all stripes of vulnerable groups, including women, racial minorities, religious groups, the poor and the masses of the people throughout much of recorded history. Though certainly not comprised of the exact same people, the same ideology and fallacies and essential structure of leverage and coercion have been employed by the rich and powerful throughout history as a means of enriching themselves and exploiting and expropriating the vulnerable. Though the condition for the average person has certainly improved in the last couple of centuries, at least regarding the material well-being of individuals living in industrialized nations, this is primarily due to victories such as the civil rights movement and women’s suffrage movement in which enough agitated and brave citizens are able to push back against the centers of economic and political power and demand their rights and their dignity as human beings. Secondarily, the progress we have achieved has been possible in large part due to the liberal economic reforms which swept much of Europe and the United States during the 18th and 19th centuries which brought the industrialization and mechanization of the chain of production which allowed workers to become far more productive creating a rising tide of prosperity and abundance which created the conditions where starvation and abject destitute poverty have mostly been eliminated in industrialized nations whereas these conditions were commonplace among the common man in previous times. The fundamental problem is that without a complete demolition, both intellectually and physically, of the grossly immoral conservative institutions and organizations of economic and political power we observe in the United States and in many nations around the world, these progressive “victories” are forever tenuous. This is abundantly clear as we are witness to the evaporation of the middle class and the widening income inequality with Wall Street firms and their government stooges breaking their own laws and getting away with it.

The modern liberal all too frequently misunderstands the cause of the desirable gains in human happiness and prosperity that we witnessed in the 20th century and this confusion tragically leads him to support the economic and political oligarchy. Betraying the liberal tradition, the modern liberal attempts to use conservative means to achieve desired liberal ends. But conservatism and liberalism are fundamentally incompatible and the use of conservative means will only hurt the vulnerable, the poor and middle classes.

To clarify what I mean by “liberal ends” and “conservative means” I have to define the terms. First of all the goals that I believe are fundamentally liberal, and these are routinely articulated by nearly all progressive commentators today, are the follows: An effective check (“regulation”) on corporate and banking power to prevent environmental degradation and the abuse of people’s rights through collusion, abuse of workers, the formation of monopolies, etc. A strong and robust middle class that is secure so that people can have the necessities to pursue happiness and live well. A tolerant attitude towards different lifestyles and protections against racism, homophobia and other types of thoughts and actions singling out minorities and the vulnerable. An antiwar and anti-empire attitude that sees militarism and war as primarily tools of economic exploitation and profiteering. Surely some progressives might argue with these definitions slightly, but in a nutshell the policies of the modern liberal are supposedly aligned with the interests of the “common man” and not with the rich and powerful.

Those are the goals (or “ends”) that I, as a classical liberal, want to achieve or move towards in the most rapid possible manner. Like I have said, liberals today use conservative means to try to achieve these goals, means that only exacerbate the problems they seek to alleviate. To clarify what I mean by that, it is important to understand the history of the political spectrum, as words like “left” and “right”, “conservative” and “liberal” are always changing and without a proper historical context it is impossible to make sense of this. Prior to President Woodrow Wilson, liberals and progressives were influenced by the Enlightenment era philosophers like John Locke, Thomas Paine, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, John Stuart Mill and Frederic Bastiat. Individuals like Lysander Spooner were a driving force behind the abolitionist movement. These liberals abhorred concentrations of economic power and they were ever vigilant against scheming businessmen and bankers. They were revolting against the oligarchy of history, the money changers and bourgeois, privileged class that attained their position by chance of birth or by force, fraud and intimidation rather than individual initiative and achievement. They stood up for the little guy and they wanted to progress humanity out of the dark ages through Natural Rights theory, equality, property rights and human dignity that we are all entitled to as our birthright. However, contrary to modern liberals, the liberals of that day did not see government as a tool of social progress, but as a means by which the conservative establishment gained their advantage, expropriated the poor, gained monopolies and exploited the masses. They did not fear the market nor did they endorse the nonsensical notion that government should “regulate” the private economy to protect the consumer and the worker. Liberals of the day saw laissez faire economy as the only ethical and fair way to organize economic life.

People like Bastiat were considered far Left. The established order, the State, corporations and banks that had colluded and formed a monopoly on the use of force and coercion in a given geographical area, were right wing, conservative and vehemently anti progressive. This is, and always should be, the correct political spectrum that we should refer to. The Liberal, in his desire for equality and his suspicion of economic power and corporations, must desire to wither away the State and get rid of its predations and assaults it routinely commits on peaceful individuals. Humanity is capable of immense progress only once we put down the guns and reject, once and for all, the fallacious notion that it is anything but intolerable that concentrated units of economic and political power have the right to initiated force and violence against peaceful individuals. THAT is progressivism. That is liberalism.

So how did liberals get so confused and turn to supporting the predacious and un-progressive State as a means to achieve liberal ends? Modern commentators and political observers have been propagandized as to the vital necessity of the State through an education system which, at least as far as US history and political science is concerned, has become nothing more than indoctrination with revisionist history. Most people today just don’t know any better.

A lot of the problem started, however, with the emergence of the Communist and Socialist ideology around the turn of the 20th century. Socialism, far from being a far left ideology, is really a confused, middle of the road economic theory whereby proponents seek to use the modern democratic State to redistribute wealth in order to achieve the progress and desired liberal ends that I outlined above. The problem is that the growth of the State that is facilitated by a public that learns they can loot their neighbors through the political process eventually dries up the prosperity in a society and the entire economy becomes far less prosperous. Not to mention the fiat money creation that is needed to fund a far reaching welfare State actually pernitiously and continuously devalues the currency in circulation and hurts those that are most vulnerable. The result in the latter stages of such a society is that, instead of a “safety net” helping the poor to move up to the middle class, it becomes the only means of subsistence for large numbers of vulnerable people. Fiat money creation causes massive dislocations in the economy, malinvestment that leads to a series of bubbles and eventually in the collapse of the society. Furthermore, it makes “peace” in a way with the oligarchy in that it doesn’t systematically seek to tear down and dismantle a predatory and exploitative power structure but rather just allows a democratic process to “redistribute” some money to some groups thought to be deserving.

If liberalism is on the far Left of the political spectrum and conservatism on the far Right, socialism is in the middle. It essentially validates the existence of the State and the banking system that funds it but seeks to use these conservative tools to move towards egalitarian ends. But like I said, these are fundamentally incompatible and the effort is bound to fail. Communism, at least of the Marxist and Leninist schools of thought, is far more leftist than democratic socialism. Communism has inner contradictions of its own, but Karl Marx actually did a reasonable job in explaining the history of exploitation of workers and the poor by the rich and powerful: the State and vested economic interests that control it. (I highly recommend the essay “Marxist and Austrian Class Analysis” by Hans Hermann Hoppe that elaborates and deconstructs the Marxist analysis of history and class structure.) Communism is not interested in “making peace” with the oligarchy but instead dismantling it entirely. Marx and Lenin also wanted to see the withering away of the State, as they correctly saw it as a tool of businessmen, bankers and others to exploit the workers. Where they failed in their theory was that they then rejected the private ownership of the means of production, which essentially renders property rights meaningless in a Communist society. An inner contradiction in the Communist theory is this: If there is no private property in the means of production how are the workers to collectively run their property and affairs without essentially becoming a State themselves? Without a strict understanding of property rights, a State-less society CANNOT function.

That is why I posit that the true leftist tradition is liberalism as it was understood before the fascist Woodrow Wilson ascended to the presidency. Wilson’s campaign, as it happens, was funded almost entirely by corporate bankers and corrupt politicians like Nelson Aldrich, Cornelius Vanderbilt, JP Morgan, William Rockefeller, and many others. Powerful banking and corporate leaders had been agitating to create a method of isolating themselves from market discipline throughout the latter part of the 19th century. The idea of creating a “lender of last resort”, a central bank that could bail out the large financial institutions if they got into trouble, was routinely condemned by a public and intellectual class that was keenly aware of the admonitions by the founders against central banking and its enabling of inflation and corruption.

So the question that modern liberals must face is this: How can you justify supporting an institution which has historically enabled corporate fascism, corruption, inflation and immense harm being done to societies most vulnerable, the poor and weak?

It is a horrendous tragedy that fiat money, fractional reserve banking and State power have been seen as engines of “progress” for humankind. The banking and corporate interests that took over control of our country’s financial system and government in the early 20th century did an impressive job in promoting the propaganda that its actions were in the interests of the American people, instead of in their own selfish interests to protect themselves against the possibility of bankruptcy and would be competitors in the market.

Another disturbing effect of the revisionism of the history of the early 20th century is the immense distrust that it has stirred on the Left about the free market. The government, we are told, needed to step in to regulate the economy, run the money supply, and intervene into the affairs of private citizens to protect us from the pernicious and rapacious capitalists that would otherwise abuse the average citizens in all sorts of ways. The truth is almost entirely the other way around. It is the large corporate interests and bankers who wanted to escape the free market as it was not serving their interests. The competition was so fierce that the position of a businessman in the market was always tenuous and businessmen do not want to risk bankruptcy. A “partnership” with government is the only way to form a stable monopoly and prevent bankruptcy. The modern regulatory apparatus was pushed by the corporations it purported to police and hold in check. It was regulatory capture from the very outset.

For the average citizens and consumers, this crippled their ability to have a say in which businesses succeed and which fail. A new fascist economy was immune from market pressures and the average citizen has very little ability to resist or fight back against a corporation that is abusing his rights. The modern left might argue, “That is what elections are for. You must elect a new Congress or Senate who will enact tougher regulations to protect the consumers”. The problem of course is that the politicians will inevitably be bought off by the large corporate donors and any forthcoming regulations will be impotent and ineffective at best or coopted to further complicate a labyrinthine regulatory code which hurts small businesses and protects the entrenched interests at worst.

The true liberal will understand that government and corporate interests are not at odds with one another but will always be mutually beneficial to each other. Such a system of fiat money, an expansive State and regulatory apparatus will always reward corrupt business practices and punish honest businessmen. If the only way to compete with a large firm is to immorally take government subsidies and low interest loans from the Federal Reserve, why would you go it alone and sink or swim on your own merits? Early philosophers saw a system of “laissez faire” as the most egalitarian and just way to organize economic life because it became easy for the consumer to single out the business with bad practices and “kick their ass” with the market as opposed to waiting for ethical people in government to vote against their own interests and punish the immoral corporations and banks on your behalf. If you are waiting for a Congress of ethical, selfless and honest individuals who will truly act in the interests of the masses of the people, not just to buy their votes, you will be waiting a very long time. Without the crutch of government support, corrupt and monopolistic businesses could be done away with through consumer action in the market in short order.

So, as a conclusion to the piece, how can you square your goals as a modern progressive with the pernicious and harmful effects of central banking, fiat money, and an expansive government on the most vulnerable, groups that progressives have pandered to for decades as having their best interests at heart? It would seem to me that we should hark back to liberalism as the true revolutionary radical leftism that it once was, and oppose central banking, fiat money, corporate fascism and work to wither away to State and institute a moral and just society based on the non-aggression principle, private property rights, sound money, and tolerance and equality based on Natural Law theory.

What are your reactions to my analysis?

Well I sat back and blinked a little bit.

That last part caught my eye- you want liberals to do away with money?
That’s not going anywhere, can’t win an election with a policy like that.

Isn’t now. Never was. Radicals hack the path forward, liberals come along when they’re sure the cabins have been built and hot showers installed. You could convert a liberal into a libertarian, but you’d only have another variety of cream custard.

There are several posters here who are relentlessly non-partisan Broderites. You’ll identify them soon enough, I recommend you to engage them forthrightly and directly, they are likely the most amenable to the startling insights you offer.

Don’t waste time on radicals, their brains have long since turned to cheese due to chemical enthusiasms and sexual depravity. Waste of time, and they are easily annoyed.

If (and it’s a big if) I understand the OP correctly, he has no interest in winning elections. He wants a revolution to smash the state.

If that’s the case, I’ll just point out that revolutionaries usually break a lot of eggs but never manage to make an omelet.

Wait, he’s trying to get liberals to smash the state?! That’s like recruiting Campfire Girls for a bayonet charge.

  1. TL;DR

  2. Based on a skimming, you seem to be using a definition of “liberal” that you claim harkens back to some type of classical meaning that should be entertained. Why? Words, especially words used in the political scene, change their meanings with time. Suggesting a change (even one that goes back to a “classical” definition) is simply confusing and clearly an attempt to gain unenthusiastic followers based on the word and NOT on what you claim the word purportedly means.

  3. Oh, and I see you are against central banks and fiat currency. If there’s anything in economics that’s remotely come close to being proven true, it’s that goldbuggery (aka “sound money”) is a nearly insane proposition and is antithetical to economic prosperity for nations and especially for the citizenry of those nations. There’s a clear correlation between going off the gold standard (or any equivalent standard) and rising prosperity for the average person.

Well if I understand him correctly, all governments are fascist tools of corporations. Liberals that try to work with governments are betraying the people. Liberals need to stop supporting governments, break down the governments and corporations that oppress the masses, and establish a utopian society without class or property.

You sure it wasn’t a call for ruthless and amoral no-holds-barred capitalism?

No. I want liberals to understand that central banking and fiat money hurt the most vulnerable members of society and enable the modern Corporate state. This type of monetary system systematically transfers money from the middle class to the banks and corporate structure that feed off the Fed’s low interest window. The purchasing power of the money is debased and it becomes incredibly hard to save money in any amount. People who have no business being in the stock market are forced to gamble in the casino in order to (hopefully) have a secure retirement.

Liberals seem to love an expansive State apparatus and thus seem to understand that fiat money and inflation are the only ways to fund the government performing all the functions they desire. But it is critical that you understand all the associated repercussions of monetary inflation. Secondly, it is imperative that liberals not conflate a true laissez faire market economy with the Corporate state and fascism that we have been experiencing throughout our lives.

We all want to police bad business practices and stop the abuse of workers and protect the environment. I am making the case (and this is easily defended by mountains of empirical evidence) that government regulation is the exact wrong way to go about accomplishing this task. Free people engaging in voluntary transactions on the market with no government to protect any player in the economy from the consequences of his or her actions will provide a superior outcome. Private litigation, word of mouth, consumer preference, workers striking, individual ratings agencies and a property rights approach to environmental protection (pollution is a violation of your property rights) will lead to vastly superior outcomes regarding the policing of corporate misconduct and the accruing of unjust economic advantage than a monopolistic State whose regulations can so easily be subverted to favor the insiders and “chosen” ones in the economy.

As far as money is concerned, I think it should be absolutely central to the progressive platform, if they really mean what they say, that sound money be seen as essential for a just society free of corporate and financial tyranny.

Honest money could mean money backed by a commodity (like gold). It could mean competing currencies where the State does not force the people into transacting with any particular unit of “money”. The point is there should be no monopoly on the creation of money. The government should be prevented by law from having the power to create money by fiat (out of thin air). So too should private banking interests be prevented from having that privilege. Banks should not be “special” institutions which cannot be allowed to fail where if one major bank goes under it takes down the entire world economy.

This is a ridiculous worldwide ponzi scheme where debt is pyramided on top of other debt, where derivatives trading amounted to greater than a quadrillion dollars and criminality on Wall Street was rampant.

This was NOT the result of a lack of regulations, as many modern day progressives would have you believe. It was a direct result of a fiat money system and secretive central bank. The monetary system is at fault and until we completely overhaul the system of money we will see the type of corporate tyranny that so many leftists are concerned about.

In point of fact, there were over 100 separate regulatory agencies that were tasked with oversight of the financial sector of our economy prior to the collapse of 2008. Are we expected to believe that adding one or two more would have made a difference? That is why I made the claim that government regulations are nearly ALWAYS designed at the outset to favor certain business interests and hurt others, NOT to protect the consumer.

The problem, as I outlined in my above essay, was that modern liberals are not really “leftist” in the traditional historical sense. They are confused middle of the road people who are not nearly radical enough. They should oppose the State and power structure on a fundamental level. Liberals have been sold a fairy tale story about the necessity of government coercion that causes them to unwittingly support the interests of the corporate oligarchy they claim to oppose.

I am not sure what you are even saying here. You don’t really address any of the central points to my essay.

If you are now claiming that liberals in the classical sense were too “radical” and you don’t trust radicals of any sort, that is not much of an argument. I would be overjoyed if modern progressives supported a “moderate” version of the classical liberalism I espouse. “Radical” to you perhaps, would be a libertarian anarchist, such as myself. A moderate liberal would be one who works to whither away the State and reform the monetary system, whether they arrive at no State at all or just seek to free the people from the tyranny of Corporate fascism and government coercion as much as is achievable within reason.

Well let me clarify that point because it is a misconception. I think an armed revolt against the United States government would be a huge mistake. It would be a bloodbath. It would make the Civil War look like picnic. There is no civilian militia or anything of the sort that could possibly match up to the power of the US military or secret service.

We can resist in other ways. Courageous individuals like Edward Snowden and Bradley Manning can leak evidence of government wrongdoing. We can engage in the underground economy as much as possible. We can maximize peace and non aggression as much as possible in our own lives first. Civil disobedience is very important and should be encouraged. Use technology (hackers) against the CIA and the State. Let them know we don’t approve of their actions and we fundamentally don’t recognize their legitimacy.

We must educate ourselves and gain a critical mass of public support. This includes modern liberals abandoning their support for the State as a “progressive” instrument and instead recognizing that true progress for humanity will only be accomplished in a non violent and voluntary manner.
That said, I certainly don’t oppose political action. The problem is that any liberal platform that makes any sort of moral sense would be relegated to a third party status. I think more than voting for people you agree with, it is extremely important to refrain from voting for politicians that are anti liberal, statist and corporate funded.

If that means don’t vote in an election, then don’t vote. Or always vote third party. If there exist politicians at the level of Congress or Senate that can be trusted to work to whither away the State apparatus, support them whether they are in your district or another.

There are plenty of legitimate means at our disposal to see a liberal future free of coercion and usury (see The Federal Reserve System).

But I think it is first essential to smash the myths that prop up the Corporate State, like those I have laid out in on this thread, before we smash the State itself.

I do believe that this forum is “left leaning” so I would appreciate some feedback on the meat of my critique regarding modern liberalism and its tacit implicit support of State coercion and fiat money creation.

Holy Toledo. Libertarian/Liberal has returned.

(Metaphorically speaking, that is. I’m not actually accusing anyone of being a sock puppet.)

Gosh. Doesn’t that take you back? So cute.

That’s probably the difficulty right there, I’m not smart enough for anarchist theory, being a simple sort of fellow. Seek out and engage John Mace, or Vinyl Turnip, or Der Trihs or TomnDeb, they are our go-to dopers when it comes to political theory.

Big knee-jerk against “Natural Law Theory.” The term is so vague as to have no meaning.

For instance, is a pro-choice stance in accord with “Natural Law,” as it respects individual freedom, or is pro-life more in accord with “Natural Law” because pregnancy is a natural function?

(If “nature” is my guide, rape, murder, genocide, theft, and predation are all morally good.)

Sorry, but you lost me with that phrase alone.

I don’t know if I can “get” liberals to do anything. I do want those that endorse the various predations of State power that fundamentally injure a great majority of the Democratic Party base and those leftists pander to to defend that support.

Like I previously said, in the 17th century up to the so called “Progressive Era” in the early to mid 20th century, the liberals were opposed to State power AND corporate banking power. The conservatives, regressive in nature, sucked up to an establishment class that used the facade of government coercion for its own ends.

Most of the ideological basis for the beliefs that modern leftists espouse has been systematically proven as spectacular failures throughout history, from the fall of Communism, to the historical failing of fiat money.

A good explanation for this discrepancy or cognitive dissonance exhibited by the loudest proponents would be a good place to start.

I’m not sure about anything. The OP might be an AI program that’s just stringing together lines of political jargon for all I can tell.

Fiat money failed? When did that happen? That’s one of the problems goldbugs face - the overwhelming evidence that fiat money works.

And Communism has fallen (mostly anyway). So did fascism. But you know what started earlier than either of them and is still going? Constitutional democracy. That’s a political system that’s shown it works. Same thing with free market capitalism as an economic system. I’m not claiming either is perfect - but I’m not going to replace them for some untried theory.

Two things. First, I might have been a bit confusing in my use of terms. I like the term “liberal” and it describes my ideology very precisely. “Libertarianism” is a flawed term because its origins in modern times includes some elements which are hardly in tune with liberty. Ayn Rand is particularly problematic in her support for an aggressive militarism and in the packaging of her beliefs. Although libertarianism would surely describe what I believe better than modern progressivism or conservatism I think it is extremely important to understand a historical context to what we believe. So many people endorse political views based on superficial things. How many people endorse “Progressivism” because they consider themselves hip and forward thinking? They oppose crusty old rigid conservatism. They look forward to a bright future of equal rights, civil rights for minorities and gays and a just society that doesn’t go back to the “dark ages” of conservative bigotry, close mindedness and so forth.

What I am articulating is that “progress” for humanity should be most closely aligned with the concepts of non aggression and liberty than with State power and violent expropriation of the citizens wealth to be spent at the whims of political creatures. Historically, it was the case that leftist liberalism understood this and opposed the State just as much as it opposed business interests and banking interests colluding against the interests of the population at large.

I am also clear about my terms because I can systematically demonstrate that the political structure that the modern Progressive supports is diametrically opposed to the wellbeing of those it professes to help. That is a vital and critical point to be understood.

As far as understanding the political spectrum, I suggest you read the essay “Left, Right and the Prospects for Liberty” by Murray Rothbard.

http://mises.org/document/1016/

To make it even easier, here is an audiobook version of this essay (only about an hour long):

http://mises.org/media/categories/205/Left-Right-and-the-Prospects-for-Liberty
This will really set you straight on the proper framework to understand the political spectrum and the morphing of these terms into unrecognizability.
Secondly, regarding your assertion that “goldbuggery” is insane and is empirically dis-proven, you provide no evidence for this assertion. And you misunderstand if you think I am implicitly supporting a gold standard the likes of which we had in the 19th century. But to make the claim that it was a horrible failure to link our dollar to gold is laughable in the extreme.

Lets examine the evidence. From the Revolution through 1933 we had a classical gold standard were the dollars were redeemable for gold, both in the United States and abroad. Yes, we went off the gold standard a few times (like during the Civil War, which was an extraordinary time by any measure) but they were always extremely brief periods after which we resumed the gold standard without much of an issue. Even after FDR confiscated the citizens gold in 1933 and made it illegal to exchange Federal Reserve notes for gold domestically, we STILL linked our dollar to gold internationally until 1971.

Okay, United States history, late 18th century through to 1971. What happened during that period? We rose from a few small colonies with nothing but a Constitution and an ideology (one of the central ideas was to reject central banking and make only gold and silver legal tender) to the most prosperous Nation in the history of the world, we went through an Industrial Revolution, we saw continuing rising living standards and the creation of the largest middle class in the world.

A failure? Hardly. All a Gold Standard does (or any system of Sound Money) is to place some limit on the amount of money a government or bank can arbitrarily create out of thin air, imposing some amount of fiscal discipline and accountability on the government.

How on earth could this be disastrous to prosperity and economic growth? And how can you square your wild accusations with the reality that our dollar maintained a link to gold throughout our entire history until 1971? We did pretty well for ourselves during those years, don’t you think?

This begs the question, why did we abandon the gold standard? It wasn’t because “it wasn’t working”. First of all you have to understand the history of the creation of the Federal Reserve. The passing of the Federal Reserve Act was NOT due to any pressing need in the economy. It was not pushed and written by academics and economists who thought that a central bank was essential for the prosperity of the Nation or for economic growth. It was written and put through by banking interests, the Rockafellers, the Morgans, the Rothchilds, the Warburgs and many of the other most powerful financial and corporate interests of the day. The ONLY reason for the drafting of that initiative was to protect themselves from bankruptcy and the competitive gales of the market economy. That was it.

So from 1913 to 1933, we had sort of a mixed economic system. It was not a complete gold standard, nor was it a fiat money system. Our dollar was still backed by gold but the Federal Reserve started intervening into the economy and, especially during the 1920s, they created a large amount of credit which created a bubble during that decade. But a central bank creating credit and a strict gold exchange standard are not compatible. So something had to give.

Either we had to reject the central bank and repeal the Federal Reserve Act OR we had to get off the gold standard. The banking interests were so entrenched into the political establishment by that point there was no way they would let go of their new money creation machine. So FDR ended the ability for Americans to exchange dollars for gold. AND he made it illegal for Americans to hold gold in one of the most tyrannical acts by an American president in US history.

So when you hear people say things like “the Gold Standard caused the Great Depression”, you have to reject that because it is clear empirically that the Federal Reserve credit expansion during the 1920s created the artificial boom which led to the bust in 1929. All that happened was that the Gold Standard preventing the politicians to expand the money supply as much as they wanted during the 30s in a misguided attempt to inflate our way out of the crisis.

Even after that episode, we had what was known as the “Bretton Woods” agreement which allowed foreigners to exchange dollars for gold. This still created considerable restraint on the Congress not to spend too much or inflate too much or else foreign creditors will come and exchange all their dollars for gold and they will not buy our debt. So the gold standard was STILL serving its purpose, even in a crippled and less effective form.

See there is nothing magical about Gold. It is only one mechanism by which to restrain the printing of money and inflation from getting out of hand. If ANY mechanism can reliably accomplish this, then it is worthwhile and equally valid.

But back to the discussion of relative prosperity before or after the Gold Standard, do you not see what has happened SINCE 1971 on a pure fiat monetary standard? The middle class has not done too well have they? Look at the national debt and the growth of government prior to 1971 vs after. Look at consumer prices for essential items like food and fuel. Examine how it requires multiple jobs for an average family to get by while an average middle class family prior to 1971 could have only one income and get by just fine, without much debt as well.

How can you possibly say that prosperity for the average citizen has gone up under a purely fiat monetary system? The facts don’t support that conclusion.

As a final point, I want to point out that modern proponents of honest money want to institute a monetary system that is much better and more effective than the one that existed in our earlier history.

Sound money proponents and Austrian economists have done a tremendous amount of work on the subject and we know a lot more about economics now than we did then. We can certainly improve upon what we had. Hayek talked about competing currencies late in his career. There are many improvements that should be instituted in any future monetary standard.

What cannot be disputed however, is the historical failure time and time against of fiat money controlled by the State.

Not at all. All acts of coercion and initiation of violence against peaceful individuals is immoral for that reason alone. I don’t even need to bring up the question of whether that government is controlled by corporate and banking interests or whether it is controlled by meddling politicians who think they know best, it is just as illegitimate as a violator of the non aggression principle.

The fact that corporations and financial interests more often than not DO co-opt the State apparatus and use it to their benefit is just an added reason to oppose the State.

And, in a liberal society it would NOT be a utopia. No society is and the insinuation that what I support is Utopian is merely a cheap debate tactic. There would be property and, possibly class in a liberal society. But in point of fact, a market economy without the initiation of force or the legal monopoly of violence in a given geographical area will produce more egalitarian results. There will be some rich and maybe some (relative) poor. But the rich will have achieved wealth through serving the consumer in a voluntary manner and the great majority of the masses of the people will enjoy a comfortable middle class lifestyle with continually increasing standards of living.

This certainly occurred from the Industrial Revolution through the middle of the 20th century.

But you STILL dodge the question. With all the evidence provided (and the evidence is mounting) how can you STILL support an expansive coercive State and a fiat monetary system and think it is a legitimate engine of human progress?

Anger and pity. Assuming you’re sincere, you’ve swallowed the Libertarian fantasies promulgated by the corrupt exploiters you claim to despise.