A civilised British politics debate thread - Can it be done?

Great Debates
81

I’m not dodging the question (at least not purposely) - I’m, not claiming to have the answer either.

I am also not claiming to be an expert on world health care systems.

What I am stating is that the current system is a dog’s breakfast.

I would be interested to see if any other country with an aging population has a better system than ours - and then learn from it.

The problem with the NHS is that if anyone (especially a tory) criticises it and says it needs reform we/they are intantly accused of wanting to dismantle all socialised health care provision. THis impedes the debate.

I also feel that it isn’t JUST about funding levels, but also about how it’s spent and on what.

For example I think it’s perfectly reasonable to pay for visits to the GP and the first £20 for medicine.

I also don’t think the NHS was designed to remove tatoos and do sex changes and other cosmetic and elective stuff.

The french (who have apparently the “best” service in the world) are having a cutback on the types of illnesses that are treatable on the state (the french are famous for getting illnesses that no one else gets like crise de fois, they’re also famous for sticking ALL their medicines up their arses - which explains a lot really)

82

Here’s the stuff in the queens speech (from a press release so public domain). Any thoughts?

Armed Forces Pensions Compensation Bill
Downing Street says the bill will “update” the pensions arrangements for the armed services bringing them into the modern world.
Pensions will remain non-contributory and the amount payable will remain linked to final salary.
It will also provide for death in service benefits to be extended to all unmarried partners provided the relationship is a “substantial arrangement”.

· Child Trust Fund Bill
Every newborn baby will have a trust fund set up that will receive a £250 contribution from the state.
In addition children will receive a cash sum from the government on their seventh birthday.

· Children’s Bill
Children will be given their own independent “champion” among new measures to boost child protection.

· Civil Contingencies Bill
Police and ministers are to get new powers to deal with terror incidents and other emergencies.

· Civil Partnership Bill
The Civil Partnership Bill would enable same sex “civil partners” to sign a document entitling them to the same legal rights as married couples.

· Companies (Audit, Investigations and Community Enterprise) Bill
The government wants to introduce tough new laws aimed at preventing Enron-style corporate abuses in the UK.

· Constitutional Reform Bill
The historic position of Lord Chancellor will be abolished and the House of Lords will be replaced as the highest court in the land by a supreme court.

· Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Bill
Under the plans, police will get new powers to deal with offenders.
And the civil laws on intimidation will be extended to cover same sex partners, unmarried couples and those who have never lived together.

· Employment Relations Bill
This bill includes a number of measures aimed at improving the rights of workers and offering better protection against unfair dismissal.

· Energy Bill
Includes plans to set up a Nuclear Decommissioning Authority which will be responsible for cleaning up Britain’s nuclear installations.

· European Union Bill
This bills paves the way for the proposed EU constitution to be ratified by the UK if and when it is agreed by European leaders.

· European Parliamentary and Local Elections (Pilots) Bill
A short bill that allows for a variety of innovative voting methods to be used in pilot schemes for next year’s European elections.

· Fire and Rescue Services Bill
Contains plans to modernise the fire service and is the first substantive legislation for 50 years.

· Higher Education Bill
This controversial bill will pave the way for £3,000 top-up fees and is likely to have a rough ride from a number of Labour backbenchers.

· Housing Bill
This includes the introduction of home information packs which sellers must provide for prospective buyers of their property.

· House of Lords Bill
This will remove the final hereditaries from the Upper House and create a fully-appointed chamber.

· Human Tissue Bill
A bid to tighten up the rules on when doctors can and cannot retain dead people’s organs and tissue was announced in the Queen’s Speech

· Immigration and Asylum Bill
A new single tier of appeal against asylum application decisions is intended to streamline the system.

· Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill
The main function of the bill is to establish a Judicial Appointments Commission for Northern Ireland.

· Pensions Bill
This aims to protect the retirement savings of British workers.

· Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill
This bill has been carried over from the previous session and aims to overhaul the planning system.

· Public Audit Wales Bill
This will allow for the establishment of a single public audit body for Wales across the public sector.

· Scottish Parliament (Constituencies) Bill
Proposals to safeguard the number of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament.

· Traffic Management Bill
A clampdown on utility companies digging up roads in an attempt to cut traffic congestion.

Draft Bills
· Draft Charities Bill
Charity fundraising could face greater scrutiny under government plans outlined in the Queen’s Speech.
Ministers say the draft bill will modernise charity law “and better enable charities to prosper”.

· Draft Criminal Defence Service Bill
This draft bill is intended to cut legal aid spending and proposes transferring decisions about granting it from magistrates’ courts to the Legal Services Commission.

· Draft Disability Discrimination Bill
Includes provisions to extend the Disability Discrimination Act to cover people with HIV and cancer from the point of diagnosis.

· Draft Transport Bill
This would enable some local authorities to pilot new arrangements for school transport to reduce road congestion.

· Draft Identity Cards Bill
Legislation will create a national register and powers for compulsory ID cards.
Passports and driving licences will include fingerprints within five years.

· Draft Gambling Bill
This paves the way for widespread deregulations of Britain’s gaming laws.

Draft Single Currency (Referendums) Bill
This would allow for a UK-wide referendum on British membership of the euro in the event the chancellor’s five economic tests are met.

Hunting Bill
Labour backbenchers and animal welfare campaigners are likely to be disappointed by the absence of a bill to ban foxhunting in the Queen’s Speech although Commons leader Peter Hain insists the government remains committed to acting.

83

Well not on all of them, no. That’s more bills than the Accounts Payable department of Toucans R Us. However:

Well, you’d have to be Scrooge himself to complain about these two, wouldn’t you? It’s all about the kiddies. Tony cares, you see. But… Well, for one thing, these independent champions tend to get roundly ignored by both the Treasury and people whose turf they’ve taken (cf Halliwell, ill-fated Drugs Tzar). As far as trust funds go I can’t see them doing any harm but I suspect that a) most will be left well alone until the 18th birthday when they’re promptly blown on accordion music and lubricants (or whatever the kids are into then). And, of course, given that top up fees will rise well over inflation over the next 18 years, £250, or even £250 plus interest, will be the proverbial drop in the bucket.

Satan is in the smallprint.

Marvellous. And the fact that a party run by focus groups is pushing through gay friendly legislation is an encouraging reflection on the change in people’s attitudes. At least, I choose to think so.

Education, education, education. This will deter people from going to University, and not well off people either. If we want to sort education out, it is going to require a lot of investment, and results won’t be seen within one parliamentary term - or even two. Encouraging Universities to overcrowd their departments by letting them charge top up fees will not help educate anybody.

Overall, it’s a curate’s egg (which I suppose is what everyone will say.) Some genuinely progressive stuff (Disabilities Bill, civil unions) alongside some equally worrying stuff - legislating the Fire Services dispute out of existence, ID cards, cutting legal aid and “streamlining” the asylum process (cutbacks in legal aid, separating families and fewer appeals). Thanks Dave.

84

Safeguard! That makes it sound like it’s a good idea!
The number of Scottish MPs was supposed to be reduced (to allieviate the West Lothian question) once we had an Assembly and thus also the number of MSPs. (Whose seats are based on the UK MP’s boundaries). I thought this was all agreed, bar the small print (like exactly where are the revised boundaries going to be, and which seats are disappearing!)
Why am I not surprised that they’re going to keep all their jobs after all!

And, in addition to the constituency MSPs, we also have a proportional representation top-up of ‘List’ MSPs to boost the numbers even more. It livens up the debates having Greens and Scottish Socialists but a lot of the rest are party drudges who people would never vote for personally.

85

Can any of the left leaning people here explain to me what the issue with top up fees for university is?

Is it an objection to charging any fees at all - ie it should be free to all.

Or is it the method, amount or timing of the collection of the fees?

86

I simply object, education should be a right and not a privaledge.

I very much suspect that if this idea had been raised when Blair/Blunkett where in student politics they would have been shouting from the roof tops about it.

87

Some believe it should be free to all.

Others will support top-up fees it if it is introduced as a blanket fee for all courses - rather than charging students £500/annum to study English and £5000/annum to study Physics (or something). This would lead to over-subscription on the cheaper courses, from students who don’t ever really want to study it but can afford nothing else.

Others reluctantly support the current government proposals, but not many.

88

So is it only a top-up on certain expensive courses like sciences?

I still can’t see why they are threatening a rebellion.

Owl

Who got a ridiculously big grant, despite coming from a minted family, spent it all on drugs, lemons, mad clothes and beer (but saved a lot of money on haircuts). Them’s were the days.

89

The basic objection is that entrance to University should be based on merit, not ability to pay. Charging £3k (even if it’s to be paid back later in installments) will inevitably put off people from poorer backgrounds who don’t want to risk being (further) in debt. I strongly suspect that in time it will lead to a two-tier system whereby Oxbridge class universities charge more and attract middle to upper class students, while former polys can’t justify charging enough to raise their game and so lose out on investment.

At a secondary level, it creates a terrible incentive for universities to cram all classes to bursting point, overwork lecturers and cut down on student services in the name of enhanced profit.

Put really simply, education is a public good and should be paid for by the public at large.

90

Nope. Still don’t get it.

If say Oxbridge charged £10,000 pa and the ployversity of luton £2,000 are you saying that people would say - “look I can get a degree for £8k pa less in Luton. I’m going to luton as that’s the best deal?”

People aren’t stupid and would realise what the extra £8k bought.

I personally feel; that there are far too many people at “universities” doing “degrees” that are utterly worthless and perhaps a fee would introduce an element of reality into things.
Owl
(BA History - of no earthly use in the real world at all,)

91

Not only are people not stupid, they’re so smart that it’s obvious even without the charge that Oxford offers a lot more than Luton. The charge doesn’t differentiate them by quality, it differentiates them by affordability. And despite the iniquities of the state system, there are people capable of winning a place at Oxford on merit who would be unable to attend if it meant an extra £8K of debt. Their access to education would essentially become means tested - something that can prevents social mobility.

Oh, I agree absolutely. Degree inflation is major pest. Universities should be about more than handing out degree certificates to everyone who comes through their doors; they should be about taking the brightest minds in the country and making them brighter. Charging fees will cut down on the number of students, but there’s no guarantee that it’ll cut out the right students. The wastes of space aren’t necessarily doing Hairdressing and Communications theory at ExPol, they can just as easily be trust fund babies swanning around the Cam.

Without meaning to be rude, I’m going to cut and run now, as it’s Friday night and I’ve just been paid - time to go paint the girlfriend’s flat. The weekend starts here.

AMR
also a BA in History,
also finding it of limited financial value.

92

Friday night? check!

Money in pocket? Check!

Flats needing painting? Nil.

Pubs open? Check!

Late pass from the wife (makes phone call) Check!

Time to do one? Most certainly.

93

How about a compromise: tuition fees for Arts degrees, full government funding for Science.