A Consensus Definition of 'Rape.'

Great Debates
41

We’ve adressed this before, Airman Doors, USAF…

While your orgasm may be important, there are some things that are more important. Like a woman that realizes that she just missed a pill. Or someone experiencing tearing or other extreme pain. Or someone that realizes that she’d rather not have sex with a guy that thinks his orgasm is so important that he’d plow away at a girl that is hating the experience enough to ask to make it stop.

I mean, let imagine that you’ve decided to try what anal sex with a man felt like. You go to the bar and pick up some nice handsome guy, and just after he enters you realize that it hurts like hell, you’ve got a wife and kids at home, and you don’t even like guys. I guess it’d be okay for him to keep pounding into you even as you say “No. Stop. Take it out. Take it out right now.” I mean, he has to come, right?

42

I know you were joking, but seriously, it can be an issue in all sorts of ways. I had some minor gynecological surgery 3 months ago, and have absolutely no idea how this will affect my comfort level the next time the occasion, ummmm, arises. Whoever the guy in question may be, I will need to have a chat with him about it first. It isn’t necessarily about the woman’s emotional willingness.

43

You didn’t know that it is possible for women to experience severe pain during intercourse? Well it is, and it’s not a laughing matter. There are many factors, ranging from a lack of sufficient lubrication to endometriosis, that can cause a woman to experience pain of the “Oh God it hurts! Stop! Stop!” variety. I’ve known women who couldn’t even use tampons because it hurt too much. I have seen figures estimating that 20-30% of women will experience such a problem at some point in their lives, and for some women it is a chronic problem.

44

What, as if that doesn’t happen? As if no woman would ever wreck a man’s life if accusing a complete stranger of rape meant she could evade taking responsibility for her own promiscuity?

… while wearing a schoolgirl’s uniform while bent over the “principal’s” desk while hiking up her plaid skirt to reveal a pair of black silk crotchless panties? If “yes” means “no” at a woman’s discretion, couldn’t “no” mean “yes?”

So it’s not a matter of passion for you, but a transaction? In other words, if he gives you a gold chain it’s consensual, but if he shows up empty-handed it’s a rape?

… like enlarging one’s Prada collection, for instance.

I really must thank the ladies contributing to this thread for broadening my consciousness on this issue. I used to think rape was a particularly ugly form of violent crime, but now I’m starting to think it’s the active ingredient in a can of Pussy-Whip.

45

BTW, for those people who are quoting me when I said they weren’t rape-I still say they are technically, coercion, blackmail and sexual harassment, and are often almost as bad as actual rape.

46

I don’t see how you’re getting this “yes” means “no” business from “Ow, stop, you’re hurting me!” means “no”, although I suppose you may have been distracted by your sordid schoolgirl fantasies.

47

My ex and I lived together for several months; sleeping in the same bed, sometimes naked, sometimes not. We did a lot of necking/petting/whatever the PC expression is, but we didn’t engage in intercourse because she wanted to be “sure” for her first time.

Eva Luna has the right of it; if the woman is honest going in, the man has no recourse but to respect her wishes.

48

Ummm, if you knew me at all, or if you had actually paid attention to what I wrote, you’d realize just how laughable an assertion yours is. The pronoun “what,” if you will notice, in the context of my statement was not referring to a material object of any sort. I was referring specifically to a feeling of security in that case. If you don’t think it’s reasonable to expect to feel safe with someone before having sex with him, well, then it’s hopeless to discuss the matter further. The rest of “what I want” tends to consist of things like love, affection, mutual respect, intelligence…never once did I mention jewelry, you will note.

If you want to think of sex as a transaction, then well, that’s your own sad perogative. I suppose one might stretch the definition of “transaction” to the point where “we make each other happy” is a transaction, which is the only way I ever meant it. Ideally, in sex, there is some sort of exchange of emotions, not just bodily fluids. I suppose there are some women who will only have sex in exchange for tangible items, but where I come from, we call those women prostitutes.

Women who use sex as a tool to manipulate men are despicable. Men who suggest that all, or even most women do so are equally despicable.

49

To the eucalyptus-eatin’ marsupial writer of the highly misogynistic posts.

I don’t think anyone, other than a few loonies, is defending that someone can give her consent after a drink or two one night, and then change her mind the morning after because her partner doesn’t call and seriously call it rape. Some people (see loonie comment above) may claim this, for whatever reason, but I haven’t seen anyone here support it.

This, IMHO, falls in the same camp of lunacy as the idiots who argue “she was wearing a short skirt, so she was asking for it”, only at the opposite extreme.

It is true that false accusations happen, and can be extremely damaging to a person’s reputation.

It is also true that rape happens, and the accused is ‘such a good boy’ and the victim ‘such a slut’, that regardless of convictions (which often don’t happen because rape cases are hard to prove), he’ll still be the local hero and she’ll be the one shunned by the community.

Furthermore, if you’re enacting your schoolgirl fantasy, and in a situation in which one partner wants to be able to shout out “No, no, stop, nooooo, no, no!” but continue with the activity in question, it is always advisable to previously agree on a safeword to yell out when things really do get uncomfortable, wether physically or psychologically, for one of the partners. People involved in BDSM, for example, do this a lot.

I’m sure you understand the difference between this situation and a situation in which a woman withdraws consent with a sound “No.” or a “Please, stop.” without any previous agreement to ignore these requests, especially if accompanied by a displeased, uncomfortable, or pained tone of voice or expression. She may just be a tease, but she may seriously be unfomfortable, for whatever reason, even physically injured. If someone continues to have sex with her without caring for her discomfort and ignoring her request to stop, they’re assholes and, yes, rapists. They should think with the big head and not the little one, be that a penis glans or a clitoris.

In spite of the liberal use of female pronouns up there, you can switch genders about. I’m using “she” because Koala Bear’s post, to which I’m responding, is misogynistic tripe, and the response is, in particular, to him/her.

Eva Luna already handled the issue of the ‘transaction’ and what she meant by it.

Some people may be close without having sex, naked without having sex, even making out without having sex, and some people may refuse giving consent to sex at any point during any of these if they don’t feel comfortable or attracted to someone else, for whatever reason. I thought this was a given. Is it hard to grasp?

Again, I don’t think anyone is saying that a woman has the right to claim rape after giving her consent if, the morning after, she does not receive a diamond ring.

50

In defense of Airman Doors, USAF, this thread is about the definition of rape. The statement he was responding to was, “Even if she is penetrated and then changes her mind, you must withdraw or it will be rape.”

I’m simply not convinced that it should be classified as rape. Although later posters came up with some additional circumstances (Pain, flashbacks, etc.) which may make the woman more sympathetic, and possibly elevate the act to “rape” none of those were included in the original statement.

What if a woman says “don’t orgasm inside me” and the man does anyway. I simply don’t think that’s rape.

Rape occurs in the animal kingdom. The female generally fights, quite literally, tooth an nail to avoid being raped. Humans are a bit more intelligent. They can weigh options and decide that their very survival might depend on their not resistance.

If I’m sitting on the jury, and I find out that, while a couple is in middle of having sex, the woman notices the clock says 8:00 and said, “Get off, American Idol is comming on the TV.” Frankly, I’m going to want to see evidence that she had that animalistic reaction of fight or flight, and started franticly beating on the man to get him off. I’m simply not going to convict the guy of anything unless some physical harm was done, or he made some credible threat. It is the woman’s perogative to drop the guy like a bad habit for being so insensitive. However, I don’t think the scenario belongs in a courtroom.

51

The problem, of course, is that you can’t read what’s on your partner’s mind. If your partner tells you to stop, you stop. Maybe you didn’t hear it the first time, and stop a short while later when the request is repeated. That’s understandable, unless the request is howled out in pain and/or abject disgust. If your partner repeatedly tells you to stop and you continue until orgasm or until you feel like it, just because you can, ignoring their withdrawal of consent, it’s rape.

You also have the choice of dumping someone who tells you to stop because they want to watch American Idol. You stop first, then you dump them. It’s pretty simple.

Frankly, anyone who accuses someone of rape because they didn’t get to watch American Idol is probably a petty vindictive bitch.

However, if they really wanted to watch American Idol, the fact that the person they’re with continued to force themselves on them may turn the whole episode very uncomfortable.

Obviously, the relationship (if there is one) has issues and the person’s priorities may be a little screwed up, but if they no longer wish to continue having sex, forcing them to continue against their will is rape. It’s probably less grievous than assault at gunpoint or under threat, but someone is still being forced to have sex against their will.

Now, as with everything, there are aggravating and exculpatory circumstances. Not all rapes are made equal. If the victim is a little intoxicated and only protests feebly, affording doubt, the rapist may be given more leniency, but they’re still a rapist. Maybe it was just a bad judgement call, but “I thought she really wanted it” shouldn’t be an acceptable excuse. Just because a rapist thinks the victim wanted him or, at least, didn’t mind, doesn’t mean a thing. Some rapists, even after convicted, believe their sexual prowess should have been enough to convince the victim to eagerly participate.

“I had no reason to believe she had withdrawn consent” may be, however, an excuse.

Big grey areas, all over the place, but…I think it’s better safe than sorry. You hear no, you stop. You think she may be saying no, you stop.

52

Would it be more useful to move away from the idea of “definition” and to talk about guiding principles for all sexual acts?
As far as I can see the guiding principle for all sex is “informed consent”.
So this would exclude sex with anyone who says “no”. It would also exclude sex with children, animals, as well as any person who is incapable, through mental incapacity or inebriation, as they are are not fully aware of what they are consenting to.
Obviously grey areas remain around interpretation of consent, but as the previous poster says, if in doubt, assume it’s no.

53

Again, does that require the eternal vigilance of the male participant in a consentual act due to the chance that at anytime during the act the woman may change her mind? Because clearly the consensus is that the woman is in charge of all things sexual at all times and since her word is, in fact, law, all men should be wary of a woman saying “no” during an act of consentual sex in order to avoid a rape charge.

Of course, now someone will say I’m misrepresenting the situation. On the contrary-I think I’m cutting through the crap and getting right down to the point that I see is being made.

I’d like to hear a yay or nay on this, without hearing “I feel sorry for you if you feel that way”, because I simply don’t care how sorry you feel for me. Is what I said above the consensus? Yes, or no?

54

I think either partner could stop during the act. Kidney problems, for example, can happen to either sex. It may be more difficult for the man to stop, but it can be done. A lot of them think they’re practicing birth control by pulling out at the crucial moment, after all. I think that talking and listening to each other is very important at all times, so I’m sorry, but I don’t think I am saying yes or no to the question.

55

Sure. I think that sums it up. It also translates into ‘either party [of either sex] can say no at any given time’ and expect the other to stop.

56

If she says “no” at any point, it ceases to be consensual (not sure about spelling) sex, doesn’t it? It’s not a question of “eternal vigilance”, just of having ears. It’s not a question of the woman’s word being “law” either - a woman would be obliged to stop if the man changed his mind

57

Geez, I wish women were really as much in charge of things as you seem to think they are, Airman Doors; my love life would certainly be a lot more lively. Amazingly, women are bound (or should be, anyway, if they have any sense of ethics about sex) by the same set of rules; it’s just that for highly complex and variable reasons, I think all of us agree that it’s more often the woman backing out of and/or refusing sex than the man.

At least one ex of mine decided, mid-fooling around, that it was a bad idea and we should stop. (And if he’s around, I’d love it if he would post here, but I doubt that will happen - long story.) As torturous as it was (and please remember that women have libidos, too, in addition to feelings), I respected his limits and stopped what I was doing…which we were both enjoying immensely.

If I hadn’t, he would have been justified in crying rape. However, the reality of that situation is that most men are physically stronger than most women, and barring unusual circumstances, are probably better able to resist unwelcome physical contact. (I’m 5’1" and not exactly imposing, strength-wise; there are very few guys out there who wouldn’t be able to fight me off.) And yes, on the occasion I have in mind *he * was the one who both initiated the contact and requested that it cease.

So no, what you said is not the consensus.

58

Try not to think of it as the woman’s word being law, and rather think of it as the non-consenting party’s lack of consent or revoked consent determining whether it is rape.

59

Eva Luna:

Your posting impressed me. I think you’re more sensitive and idealistic than I gave you credit for. If I’ve said anything to hurt your feelings I apologize.

The only thing a woman can reasonably expect from a man in exchange for sex is sex. If you expect anything else – commitment, love, intimacy, respect, etc. – you may find yourself swindled by men who pretend to offer these things in order to obtain sex but leave you in the lurch afterward. (Gadarene may argue this also constitutes rape, but in my opinion it only constitutes an encounter with an asshole.)

Have sex whenever you want to, never have sex when you don’t, and avoid equating sex with anything other than itself. That way you have the opportunity to build an equitable relationship over the long term: commitment for commitment, love for love, intimacy for intimacy… and sex for sex.

EyeballBoy:

Your posting did not impress me.

Pardon me? Is this a variation of Gaudere’s Law or something?

Gadarene seems to think so. She’s suggested that it should be expanded beyond “the standard conception of violent, forcible penetration” to include “diminished capacity (due to alcohol, say)” and "a husband [who] doesn’t think his wife wants to have sex at a given moment but has sex with her anyway."

In other words, the statutory definition of rape is unsuitable because it has a fixed, unambiguous legal meaning: the “consensus” she’s looking for is that sex = rape at the woman’s sole discretion, whether she consents to the activity or not.

Citation, please?

In point of fact I don’t have a schoolgirl fantasy. I was being gratuitously explicit in order to make a point – rather like the example you provide here. Let me express the underlying concept a bit more plainly:

If “rape” means what we want it to and not what the law says it does, how far can we extend that definition before it becomes meaningless?

If the butcher shorts you a few ounces of pot roast, is that rape?
If you’re fired for stealing money from your employer, is that rape?
If you oversleep and miss the White Sale at Fields, is that rape too?

I prefer Zoe’s interpretation instead: if a woman says “yes” and “no” at random throughout coitus, the man had better jump on and off her bones with the agility of a chihuahua or he’s a rapist. It’s semantically stable (“yes” means “yes” and “no” means “no” whether or not she’s had a snifter of brandy before bedtime), it just limits her choice of lover/rapist/lover/lover/rapist/lover/rapist/rapist/lover/rapist/lover to men of extraordinary athletic prowess.

That’s the second time you’ve implied that I was a misogynist. The first time I assumed you were being precious. Let me give you the safe-word, BondageBoy: stop.

No. What’s hard to grasp is how a woman might expect to revoke her consent after the fact.

60

I come close to liking this definition, but yes it still has some flaws. Depends on what you mean by threat. If the threat is of violence, than absolutely that is rape. If the threat is the loss of a job, then that is not rape, it is sexual harrassment (still bad, still against the law). If the threat is to break off the relationship, then it is not rape (still bad, not against the law).

As far as the OP goes I don’t like the “not wanting to have sex” part of the definition of rape. People have sex without wanting too all of the time, but they don’t necessarily feel like they’ve been raped. Men and women can consent to sexual activity without actually wanting to have sex…they could do so in order to show love to, or to please a partner. So long as the consent is there, it is no rape.