Eh, no, I meant it’s as unlikely as an unilateral withdrawal.
Oh, s.w.! capacitor was just humorously (and all so constructively) implying that such is what we Israel supporters really want to do.
But let’s take your suggestion at face value too. A multination invasion force of Israel to force Israel to accept what the Arab countries see is just. Again, avoiding all discussion of right/wrong, etc. How does it fare (from the Palestinian POV)? Well, West Bank Arabs would be mostly destroyed in the crossfire, the ability to produce oil would be demolished by the Israeli airforce and it would be a long time until an economically viable country could be built fro the ashes. Nah. This doesn’t get them what they want either.
edwino thanks for the link and the thoughtful analysis. Today’s Chicago Tribune features the unilateral withdrawl/big big wall concept as well. From that aricle comes the figure that 3/4s of Israelis support such an idea. Again quoting from that article
Every country holds a group of people defined as its nationals above all others. That is not racism. Racism is systematically excluding specific people because of who they were born to.
Israel and Judaism is less racist than most since it allows for conversion to Judaism based on the acceptance of religious beliefs and pracitices. This process excludes nobody. Anybody can become Jewish. There are black Jews, white Jews, Latin American Jews, Indian Jews, Asian Jews and even Arab Jews.
Beisides that, even people that are not part of the group which, as you put it, are held above others, are not objects of scorn for the Jewish religion or its spokesmen.
Which is more than I can say for the author of this sermon:
April 26, 2002, 12:55 p.m.
Saudi Telethon Host Calls for Enslaving Jewish Women
From the Saudi Information Service.
(WASHINGTON DC) April 26, 2002 …The Saudi Information Agency has obtained
a tape by prominent government official cleric Shaikh Saad Al-Buraik
calling for enslaving Jewish women. The tape is called “a Monkey Desecrates
Mosque,” and was delivered in a Riyadh government mosque. The monkey refers
to Jews.
Al-Buraik, a Wahhabi cleric, is closely tied to Prince AbdulAziz Ben Fahd,
the king’s youngest son, and member of the Saudi delegation accompanying
Crown Prince Abdullah on his current visit.
The following are excerpts of the tape:
On Jews and Christians he said:
People should know that Jews are backed by the Christians, and the battle
that we are going through is not with Jews only, but also with those who
believe that Allah is a third in a Trinity, and those who said that Jesus
is the son of Allah, and Allah is Jesus, the son of Mary.
About America he said:
I am against America until this life ends, until the Day of Judgment;
I am against America even if the stone liquefies
My hatred of America, if part of it was contained in the universe, it would
collapse.
She is the root of all evils, and wickedness on earth.
Who else implanted the tyrants in our land, who else nurtured oppression?
Oh Muslim Ummah don’t take the Jews and Christians as allies.
Jewish women as slaves he says:
Muslim Brothers in Palestine, do not have any mercy neither compassion on
the Jews, their blood, their money, their flesh. Their women are yours to
take, legitimately. God made them yours. Why don’t you enslave their women?
Why don’t you wage jihad? Why don’t you pillage them?
To listen to the entire tape open the below link:
http://media.islamway.com/arabic/images/lessons/burek/monkey.rm
I’m not quoting this just to lay blame. I’m doing it to defend my people and religion against slander. We are not racists. We are not scornfull of others. And you can see this well in contrast to real racists, like the above quoted cleric.
I reiterate my suggestion, and I seem to be one of the only ones here remaining faithful the idea of the thread by focussing on practical suggestions for the future. A small community of Jews should live in Jenin or Shchem, under the full authority of the Palestinians. If the Palestinian governement can protect them and the society can accomodate them in their midst then we would have a real jump start for a new spirit of cooperation and mutual respect.
Btw. You, sweet Willie, are way outta line with your contempt for those that dissagree with you. I’m soooooo sick of it!
Please lighten up.
Plenty of Arabs live quite happily and securely in Israel. Nobody is being driven out. Nobody is being denied the vote. Meanwhile, not one single Jew lives in the PA. Selling land to a Jew is a capital crime there. And if a Jew accidentally makes a wrong turn and gets stopped at a Palestinian militray checkpoint, he is liable to be detained and taken to a violent mob for lynching or a severe beating.
Where is the balance here? Sheesh, Sweet Willie!
I think that racism is the issue here. And there aint no fence high enough to protect us from it. So I would like to see it dealt with.
Why are the people who criticise Israel, the only democracy and most liberal state in the middle east, so silent when confronted with the reality of life in most of the Arab countries, where other religions are often illegal, and preaching them is a crime punishable by death?
Remember when the Taliban jailed those Christian women for proselytizing and convicted them to death? The silence over that was deafening in the west. Hell, I even saw Margaret Carlson on “The Capital Gang” say, “Hey, if you go over there and preach, you deserve what you get.” Not a word about how despicable the policy was in the first place. And I think that was the general sentiment here on the SDMB, too.
But now these same people are climbing all over Israel. What the hell?
I still don’t understand just what these Arab countries have managed to do to cause so many people in the west to turn a blind eye towards their despotic regimes and instead focus their wrath on Israel, a Democracy very similar to the ones we live in.
On Meet the Press a couple of weeks ago, Shimon Peres dicussed freely to Tim Russert about Sharon’s plan’s to annex half of the West Bank. He didn’t seem to be against it as he was in other policy matters on which he strongly disagreed with .
No, my suggestion wasn’t facetious. At least half of it was already seriously considered in Ariel Sharon’s office. Look it up before you accuse me of being ‘unconstructive’. Yes, I know the suggestion would be wrong if implemented.
Here are some real steps that have to be made on both sides:
Israel:
-
Stop expanding settelments, and no loopholes in treaties that allow for it.
-
Share water rights in the Golan Heights.
-
Assist in the Palestinian police in apprehending terrorists, as opposed to blowing up command outposts and destroying Palestinian infrastructure.
Palestinians:
-
It is not a democracy yet, so take advantage of it. Ban all suicide attack celebrations.
-
If Pal needs Is to assist in rooting out terrorists, ask for it; don’t wait until Is to come in with tanks blasting shells.
-
If you must protest, do it peacefully.
-
Go on TV and say that Israel will stayand we should live with that fact.
My take would be like most others :
-Israel withdrawal to the 1967 borders (with possibly some local territory exchanges if it appears appropriate)
-Dismantlement of the settlements in the West Bank
-Demilitarization of the Palestinian state under international control (apart possibly a kind of “national guard” with limited weaponry)
-Free elections in the said state under international control
-Just indemnization of all Arabs (or possibly their heirs) who lost property inside Israel proper without right of return in Israel.
-Unlimited right of return inside the Palestinian state if the PA thinks it’s appropriate
-Jerusalem ruled by an autonomous local authority with a right of veto by both Palestine and Israel for all important decisions
-Protected road joining Gaza and the West Bank (similar to the road which existed between West-Germany and Berlin during the cold war)
and I forgot :
-Massive international help to build/rebuild the Palestinian state.
I should point out for perspective’s sake, 3/4s of Israelis would most likely support Captain Kirk showing up and transporting all Palestinians to the Klingon homeworld. I would also guess that 3/4s of Israelis enjoy the use of soft toilet tissue over sandpaper.
More gently, my point is that Israel is desperate for any solution, no matter how wild-assed it is, because there isn’t much worse than the status quo. This is a more hysterical stance than the ‘realistic’ one Peres mentions - I think the region is beyond realistic already.
**
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Its not a loophole in the treaty. The Oslo accords totally allowed it in the interim period, which we never got past.
But they ARE the terrorist!
You cannot assist them to… If you assist them militarily, you will be assisting them to do what they want to do militarily.
This aspect of your suggestion makes no sense unless a new pattern of relationship is establish first.
If I were a Palestinian I would resent a demand upon me to say certain things that I don’t believe in or not say certain things that I do believe in. This takes away people’s dignity more than one might think, unless the speaker is cynically lying, in which case the listeners, ie the Palestinian public, will know it and take such statements with a grain of salt.
Don’t tell people what they have to say. Don’t give them incentives to say what you want them to say. Deal with what they feel and believe in a non-manipulative way.
Hope this helps.
The much talked about “deportation” option is embraced by only a few right wing nuts in Israel. Many of the parties who push it are in fact illegal (Kach, for instance). While some of the coalition government right now is composed of said right wing nuts, they are a small, small minority. Luckily, there is a large, secular middle ground in Israel who realizes that they have to live with the Palestinians. From the article I linked to, specifically that survey result, I believe that this large middle ground is falling in line behind separation.
Israel can’t realistically be expected to back down under fire, with Israelis under threat of attack. This is not expected of any country in the world, ever. Around Passover, the Palestinian extremists were controlling the situation. The PA couldn’t reign them in, as they were too popular. The onus fell on the Israelis, hence Operation Defensive Shield. The Israelis have to acheive some modicum of security, where they can at least be reasonably sure that attacks are infrequent.
But after that (and we may be at that point within the week), all indications are that the majority of Israel does not support prolonged military action in the territories, and would be quite happy living next to an independent Palestine.
Israel has fought wars of attrition before, with Syria after 1973 and with Lebanon after 1982. The Israeli public IMHO will not support another. The opportunity arose for a military victory in the territories, and Sharon took it. They can now withdraw from the territories without losing face. And in the Middle East, perhaps the most important policy is saving face.
All of this talk about international rebuilding, about guarantees of human rights, about retribution for those displaced in 1948, etc. etc. are secondary. The primary goal is foundation of an independent Palestine. Israel is approaching a point where separation can be acheived without losing face. Israel won a big victory with Operation Defensive Shield. Palestine knows what will happen if she attacks Israel. IMHO, it is a perfect time for a sweeping settlement and (again) IMHO, you see the impetus building in Israeli society.
The atmosphere is ripening. The means (Saudi cease fire and peace plan, with US and UK peacekeepers for good measure) are on the table. The next few weeks hold a lot of potential for good.
Unfortunately, these terrorists have been proven to be quite intransigent and not easily intimidated by any military operation on Israel’s part, nor will they stop their actions during any peace negotiations. These people will fight to the bitter end, and the end may look worse than Jenin.
it’s IMO extremely unlikely that the parties will make peace wiht each other without outside pressure. The initiative must also come from outside. We must basically impose a peace on the parties. It worked in Macedonia for example. If only the Bush admin was willing, it would succeed.
CDW: I doubt it. Israel is most definitely not Macedonia. Though the United States’ influence is very significant, Israel in particular ( but also the very stubborn PA ) would be extremely resistant, probably effectively so, to any attempt to impose a peace plan.
I’ve been mulling over this thread a bit and I find I’ve reluctantly come to the point where Edwino’s option seems like it may be the best choice at this point. I don’t like it and have been resistant to the idea for awhile as I think it sets up a whole series of hornet’s nests that are going to bedevil the region as a result. But something clearly needs to be done and other options are becoming less and less likely as the respective populaces become more and more radicalized. Anything that will offer breathing room might be a good thing in the short term.
I will say that long term, this “separate but equal” ( and not really equal, hence part of the problem ) stasis will likely go nowhere. A Palestinian state based on the West Bank and Gaza probably isn’t viable on its own. And Israel has a use for additional labor. Plus separation just fosters the social hatreds plaguing the region. I’m still of the opinion that somewhere wayyyy down the road, some sort of raproachment and perhaps a confederated status will be necessary for stability. But we’re obviously a long, long way from that and you have to start somewhere.
- Tamerlane
Again, unilateral withdrawal is a pipedream. No israeli government would do it.
Unilateral withdrawl to pre1967 and half of Jerusalem.
Total cessation of the intifada, deconstriction and decommsioning of the terrorist forces.
An end to Settlement expantion.
Build a great big wall.
Israel to aide in the reconstruction of Palestinian Infrastrusture, to Aide in the running of free elections, to aide in Humanitarian missions in Palestine.
The Setting up of a Truth and reconciliation committee.
Crush them with kindness. They are much more willing to listen to someone with their hand extended in friendship, rather than a hand with a gun in it.
I don’t think either side will in the forseeable future get leaders that are strong enough to make peace without outside pressure and support (both a carrot and a stick is needed.) I do think, under the right circumstances, if the parties are pressed to negotiate and to make peace, it could happen, and that there are peace terms that a sufficient number of both populations could grudgingly accept.
One of these circumstances would be that Sharon is replaced with someone more dovish and less foolish.
Read this:
(I’ve never seen a NYRB essay cited here. Why, in the name of reason? NYRB is the best.)
Apparently, my postings on this thread are written in invisible ink.
That’s okay, I guess.
I’m down wid it.
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Tjena, CDW! Du är den första jag har träffat här på SDMB som bor i samma stad som mig.
Kul!
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