In various threads concering gay marriage (No I’m not gay. I’m a married heterosexual male, lest you get any ideas. I just really hate discrimination) and other issues that bring religious hatemongers out in force, I often see the argument that the United States is a country founded on Christianity, so our laws should reflect that.
This is totally false. Check out theTreaty of Tripoli, ratified by the Senate in 1797. Article 11 states “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion” It doesn’t get any clearer than that, kiddies.
Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian, nor was Tom Paine or John Adams. In a letter to Jefferson, Adams wrote that he was “often tempted to think that this would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it.”
So please stop using your damn religion as an excuse to justify discriminatory laws. Thank you and good day
“Love thy neighbor … unless he’s a fucking queer”
–not the Bible
I have to laugh, not at you puffington, but at the staunch Republicans that spout this same crap.
In fact, Jefferson was a theist, much like me. His detractors called him an atheist even though the term was wrong, but because many felt that if you don’t believe in Christianity you therefore were an athesist.
Somehow though he was able to get his message to a Bapist congregation and stated to them:
Believing… that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802
And here’s the man speaking to a religious organization (via letter I presume) about which was so true to many. In addition, he is the original author of the Declaration of Independence…go figure.
In addition, statements of my state legislature reps and senators are such that they believe that this country is solely founded on Christianity. But then again, you need to remember that I live in a community that consists of Focus on the Family, Colorado for Family Values etc…What would I expect from them?
Even though this was a Jefferson quote after the DOI and the Constitution (which he had great influence on even while in France) here’s another great quote:
I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803.
You know it puffington, you hit the nail on the head…
Actually, at that time he had no problem getting his message across to Baptists. They had been forced to support Episcopal, Presbyterian or Congregational established churches and in the past had suffered civil disabilities because of their beliefs. Thus they were staunch proponents of the separation of church and state then- another historical fact some choose to ignore.
These United States of America were founded (mostly) by Christians, but where the hell does it say that the nation was founded for Christians and Christianity?
These United States of America were founded (mostly) by Christians, but where the hell does it say that the nation was founded for Christians and Christianity?
That’s my counter argument to the brain dead bigots!
“lest you get any ideas”??? What “ideas” might we get? Is it possible that you are afraid we might think you are. . . GAY!!??
That would be bad, right? That’s why you make sure we understand up front that you are a hetero, right? Because it would be BAD if you were thought to be gay, right?
If your quote at the end is “not the Bible” then what is it? Maybe you are new to writing, but I assure you that telling the reader where a quoted phrase does NOT come from is rather unhelpful.
“This day is called the Feast of Crispian,” --Henry V
Hmm. Perhaps puffington’s quote was intended to point out that, despite what the Fred Phelpses of the world may believe, the Bible does not exclude homosexuals from its command to “love thy neighbor”?
No the bible doesn’t exclude them from that edict. When did I say that it does?
And how, exactly, do we go from “love thy neighbor” to “agree with absolutely everything thy neighbor thinks, especially when he throws himself on the floor and pounds his hands and feet, and starts painting up picket signs, and calls you a bigot and in general throws a hissy fit – agree with everything he says when he does this, and give him anything he wants at taxpayer expense, because if thou dost not, thou art a bigot and a gay-bashing-homo”.
What chapter and verse is that?
“This day is called the Feast of Crispian,” --Henry V
Lionel, could you explain who you are angry at, about what? You are obviously very upset, but it isn’t clear who, except that you don’t like puffington, and it isn’t clear at ALL why you are angry at him.
No one accuses you of being a follower of Fred Phelps; Ruadh was trying to explain the line you were upset about in Puffington’s post.
I’m guessing that Puffington clarified his orientation so he could make it clear that this was an issue of justice and fairness and not just of interest to gays.
It is certainly a great privilege to have some one like you in Great Debates. Thank good you’re not the sort of person to fly of the handle at a perceived insult without checking things out. (sarcasm)
What? What makes you think I am upset? I’m chating. More to the point, I am chating under a topic called “A country founded on Christianity?” and the fellow at the top of the list makes it quite clear that the question mark at the end of the subject name in some way marks this discussion as really being about “Gaiety: Threat or menace?”
But before he can get on with making his points, he feels the need to assure all of us that the flag he flies is red-white-and-blue hetero, not frilly pink with oh-so-precious tassles. I ask a simple question: why was this important? Why did he feel the need to tell us this?
What did his “orientation” have to do with the logical agrument he intended to present?
“This day is called the Feast of Crispian,” --Henry V
You really “hate” discrimination? But you are a better person than those “religious hatemongers” right? I suppose you must really “hate” those “hatemongers” right? How DARE anybody “discriminate” by having a different opinion than you, right? God how you hate them!
Why are athiests so dogmatic and intolerant? Why do you lose your freaking minds whenever you hear the word “God”? Why do you at once resort to flinging bigoted, hateful epithets like “bigot” and “hatemonger”?
Why do you not grasp the fact that an unprovable faith in the existence of God – and by extension, absolute moral laws, – is no more silly than an unprovable faith in the NONexistence of God, and by extension relativistic morality.
ROFLMAO! Ah, you nailed it there, buddy. I don’t know how many times I’ve been subjected to Athiests trying to force me to not believe in god. I am so sick of their standing and not praying at public events. It really burns my ass how they lobby school boards and try to force us to have a manditory time in school for no prayer. And I, for one, am sick of how they try to influence legislators to pass laws forcing their own brand of tiolerance on others. BRAVO!! WELL SAID!
Since when do Christians want “manditory” school prayer? They simply want time set aside for kids to have the option to pray if they want to. And we can’t have that, can we? We can’t have it because we are intiolerant of any view other than our own. Under the cover of “liberal tiolerance” what we want is to banish the word “God” from all aspects of public life, because merely hearing that word drives us out of our enlightened, open, diverse, inclusive little liberal minds.
“An athiest is someone terrified by the awesome fact that God exists.”–
Norman Mailer
I hate to take your attentions away from “The Lionel Mandrake Show” , but puffington’s OP contained what is, sadly, an Urban Legend among atheists.
As is explained at http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/arguments.html#usanot , the Treaty of Tripoli was originally written and signed in Arabic, and later translated into English by Joel Barlow, an opponent of Christianity. The original Arabic version of the Treaty did not have Article XI in it at all.
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
So what if puffington states his sexual orientation? All that did was tell me that he supports gay rights. Not a bad thing.
As for the intolerant atheists, you need to read some of the atheism threads on this board, Lionel. There’s quite a few atheists here, and the only thing they don’t tolerate is ignorance.
Weirddave: Two thumbs up on that post, guy!
Changing my sig, because Wally said to, and I really like Wally, and I’ll do anything he says, anytime he says to.
I’d just like to point out that Mr. Mandrake is merely chatting, and is not, as some might suspect, ranting, nor is he an inherently angry person grinding a very large axe.
I should also warn you, Mr. Mandrake, not to try any preversions while you are on this list.
, but puffington’s OP contained what is, sadly, an Urban Legend among atheists.