A Friday afternoon rant

See, to me, that’s a little short-sighted. Those of Spanish heritage are members of the fastest-growing minority in the US. Spanish as a second language is an important skill for a native English speaker, especially in the Southwest, Central and South Florida, and the large cities of the North. Many of the employment ads placed in my local paper offer a 10% or more bonus for anyone who is functionally bilingual. I assure you, if I grew up in a household with a speaker of another language, I would have followed him everywhere and learned the language as best I could. I don’t understand the sort of willful ignorance you espouse in this post. What’s not to gain by learning something? Especially something with an actual, practical application?

I agree that learning English (or whatever language may eventually dominate) is an important step to take when moving to the US, but you have to remember that many immigrants to the US are severely disadvantaged economically and may be struggling to support themselves and their families. I’m not saying that they should never learn the predominate language, but perhaps some have other priorities, such as food and shelter? My county has had a large influx of Eastern Europeans (Czechs, Serbs, Bosnians, and others) over the past 15 years or so. Many of them get a job first and worry about language acquisition later, so they can feed and clothe their families. These are the people to whom I was referring earlier, when I mentioned the baggers and janitors who learned English on the job at my store. They simply did not have the opportunity to take English immersion courses before fleeing their war-torn homelands.

As to not having an official language, I believe that having no specific language instituted in the US is a beautiful, symbolic gesture of the openness this country once stood for. This is a nation of immigrants and their descendants; I think we tend to forget that.

I have this image of you in my mind, ranting about this from another perspective. It is an image formed by your constant shifting of the blame off of yourself on to anyone else who happens to be nearby. It is my (kinda uninformed) opinion that if you were just across the border in Mexico trying to order something at a counter, you would be bitching and moaning that the idiot working there can’t be bothered to learn English, because “everybody else in the world speaks English.” You did not specifically mention any of this, but given your posting history and apparent general attitude, it would not surprise me in the slightest to hear you saying it.

And yosemite, I am not advocating the position taken by people who have been here for 10 - 20 years and insist that you learn their language. I am saying that it is IDBB’s job to serve her customers, and that in an area with so many people who don’t speak English, learning a few phrases in the dominate second language might help her to ease communication between her and those customers. I believe that it again comes down to her (so far evidenced by her posting history) attitude of doing nothing but the bare minimum required.

IDBB, listen closely. Instead of ranting about trying to “decipher what you want through mime and half-grunted semi-intelligible English”, understand that their language barrier is probably more an irritant to them than to you. Further understand that with a modicum of good humor and common kindness, you can ease their discomfort with the language and disarm the potentially hostile situation before it starts. And as you consistently complain, you are surrounded by kitchen- and counter-workers who speak Spanish, and a couple of Middle Eastern managers, one of whom probably speaks either Arabic or Farsi. I find it extremely difficult to believe that at least one of them would not come help you translate for your customers.

A

Huh?

I think it also may be because we’ve just had this argument recently - I realize that the Dope likes to bash a dead horse, but maybe people are just tired of talking about it. But while I’ll admit, I do get frustrated when I’m trying to order a meal and the person doesn’t speak the language, but eventually - we understand each other. It just takes a little extra trying. I expect that most immigrants who came here didn’t speak the language at first - but not understanding the language probably beat the bad living conditions in their home countries. I think we should cut them some slack - most of them come here to work hard and improve their lives. The language will improve at some point, more than likely.

Ava

Bambi, I’m with you on most of this (as I did concede in my previous post). My heart goes out to any family who comes here in haste, is struggling to make a living and scrape by. I have a lot of sympathy for their situation.

Well…yeah, if IDBB wants to do that, fine. And yes, of course she should be mindful of how these folks struggle and show some measure of patience and tolerance. For all she knows they just got off the boat. A little charity is in order.

But I draw the line at your gently alluding (as you have, IMO) that it’s somehow part of IDBB’s “job” to “learn a few phrases.” No, you didn’t specifically spell that out, but that’s what I’m getting from what you wrote there.

No. No, it’s not part of her job to learn someone else’s language. She’s not going up to them asking for service, they are going up to her. And if they want this limited service (cheap fast food), maybe they can learn a “few phrases.”

Her employers did not require someone who was multi-lingual for the job, and they certainly aren’t paying “extra” for those employees who are multi-lingual. I’ll hazard a guess and say that IDBB gets paid diddley squat. If her employers want to “serve” their diverse clientele better, they can pay for it by hiring multi-lingual employees, and pay them accordingly.

How many “few phrases” from how many different languages do you think she should have to learn, anyway?

I used to work in retail in an area where we got Spanish speakers, speakers of Farsi (several different versions, apparently, though I’m unclear on that) and speakers of several Asian languages. I got paid diddley squat for this job. Would you have considered it part of my “job” to learn various phrases from all these different languages?

Bear in mind, these people were usually very sweet people, and I always tried my best to be patient with them and communicate with them on a basic way (using hand gestures and pointing). But I never felt like wringing my hands in distress because I couldn’t understand them, that I didn’t know a “few phrases” of their language. I didn’t think that was part of my job.

I agree with this. I agree that good natured patience and kindness can cross many a language barrier.

Jesus christ, you get paid by the hour right?

Who fucking cares how long it takes them to order, enjoy the break, stand there and smile, wait patiently for them to make up their minds, you will make the same damn paycheck.

Where I live, you wouldnt last at any service job with your unilingual bullshit attitude - even fast food around here requires a working knowledge of two languages.

As far as getting more education for a better job, dont bother, with your attitude, all the education in the world wont help. You would suck at pretty much any job working with the public.

I didn’t really mean to say that it is her job to learn a couple phrases, although I acknowledge my post could be read that way. I meant it more in a “instead of whining (repeatedly) about what you can’t change, change what you can to improve the situation” way.

The point I was trying to make was that her energy would be much better spent changing what she can to make this situation better as opposed to repeatedly railing against what she can’t. Her past posts have revealed a certain stubbornness in regards to self-improvement and a tendency to whine excessively about everything.

I agree with the rest of your previous post – these threads are much less fun when everyone in the pileon starts agreeing, aren’t they? :wink:

Ooops, apologies about the cryptic post above-I accidentally hit enter and then my personal life imploded and superseded posting anymore last night.
There seems to be a lot of that going around these days.
Here’s what I was attempting to say:

And I’d be willing to take that statement at face value, lezlers if this was the first time that you’ve made that observation but it isn’t.
It’s becoming a pattern.
Here’s the danger that I see in posting only in the Pit-a habit that *I’m * equally as guilty of as well.
You tend to become like those blind fish that can only live at certain depths.
The posts here are adversarial by definition and it becomes easier to develop an extreme antipathy for another poster because of this forum’s very nature.
Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong but you’ve seemed to make it your personal mission to bait Diane these days and you succeeded quite well in this thread.
Your rather disingenuous comment that

just seems to confirm my point that you rode in here and tossed out remarks about the Offenderati in order to stir the pot.
It seems a tad dishonest to accuse Diane of personally following you around to harass you when a number of your recent posts seem to directed at her as a challenge.

And,yes, people can be quite annoying when you’re forced to work with the general public. I’m sure I’d want dump hot oil on my customers on a regular basis if I sold French fries for a living. I could care less if IDBB’s rants’ weekly about how much she despises the general public but I am curious as to why she so adamantly refuses to learn a few simple Spanish phrases. I’m not quite willing to label it bigotry yet but come on, you’d have to be bit thick not to realize that some one who works in a fast food position in Texas, a state that 1) borders Mexico and 2) has a huge Spanish speaking population is being more than a little idiotic to complain that she frequently has customers that speak nominal English.

Here’s another perspective on her comment that:

When I worked at a general store in Flagstaff, I often waited on both Navajo and Hopi customers.
You know what, many of the older woman had *never * learned to speak English and they were born in this country. They flat out refused to do so on the grounds that actually, they were here first.
They didn’t get pissed off me or assume that I was stupid-we managed to get the job despite the language barrier.

jlzania,

How can I be baiting Diane when I posted before she even entered the thread? She’s not the only member of the Offenderati. Her first post was directed at me, so of course my response was directed at her. Looking back on my inital post, I can see how it might be seen as baiting and it probably wasn’t the smartest thing to do. However, at the time I posted it, baiting was not my intention, and that is the truth.

I like to post in the Pit because it’s the most interesting forum for me. I’ve cruised other forums and I always find myself back here. shrug To each their own. Other people are the same way with other forums, people tend to stick with their individual preferences. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Like I mentioned before to Diane, I usually post in response to the Offenderati’s attempting hijack of a thread. There has been a few times where I started it, I will admit to that, but the vast majority of the time, I’m a reactive poster. I tend to go after Diane more than other posters because I see her as a bully who prefers drive by insults to actual discussion of the topic. She is usually the nastiest of the group and so makes herself an easy mark to go after. My posts to her are also usually nastier than my posts to others for that same reason. I think that’s why they probably stand out more.

I can see how my constant clashing with the Offenderati can be seen as a habit. That’s because it’s a personal pet peeve of mine. Like Diane mentioned how she’s sick of “ignorant” people chasing away regular posters, I’m sick of the Offenderati chasing away posters for the opposite reason. I’ve been here for awhile and noticed that they’ve gotten a lot more agressive in the past year or so. Anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot or a bigot. I find that very inappropriate and will call them on their behavior when I see it. I’ll let up when they let up. As long as they’re out there hijacking threads though, I’ll be out there butting heads with them. There are some instances where the OP truly did cross the line and needed to be called on their behavior. There are plenty of times though when the OP was fine, and the offenderati was obviously having a slow day and needed something to rip apart. If I think they’re overreacting to something, or needlessly hijacking a thread, I’ll say so.

I will stop “baiting” them though. I agree that it’s counterproductive and casts me in a negative light.

Thanks for the calm and non threatening assesment.

lezlers You’re quite welcome.

I can understand the extreme aversion to bullying. It’s my red flag in life too.
As a newbie on another board, I got thoroughly slashed for the innocuous statement that most of the Christians that I knew personally were not bigoted assholes.
That thread quickly degenerated into nasty name calling- the likes of which made any sarcastic remarks I’ve ever seen made by either you or Diane look positively congenial in comparison.
I withdrew when it became all too apparent that the regular cabal wasn’t at all interested in discussing the issue at hand-all they cared about was trying to beat me into submission.

I also remember being as horrified as you were in what I perceived (rightly or wrongly) as the “let’s bash the living daylights out of BBJ for some possibly snotty but not necessarily bigoted remarks about her fellow concert goers until she cries like a girl and runs screaming from the room” thread. That did smack of bullying to me-big time.

Diane may be quick to perceive insult and a trifle too hasty with accusations of bigotry.
She is most assuredly caustic.
She can be quite full of shit but she can also nail an issue very accurately on occasion.
The problem with taking on the mantel of the Anti-Offenderati, as you yourself are smart enough to know, is that you begin to assume all of her posts are based bullying and automatically respond in kind.
I guess that I think the real danger of the Pit is that it becomes all too easy to start being mean just because well, you can.

In other words, you aren’t baiting me specifically, just baiting.

If it wasn’t baiting, what was it? Specifically,

Here’s the thing lez, you have taken it upon yourself to lump a group of people under the title of Offederati. A group of people who have many individual characteristics and who offer this board many different views on many different subjects.

What exactly is the Offederati? Please explain in detail? Those of us who feel the words “trailer trash” to describe an entire class of people is unnecessary bigotry? What about those of us who think mulletts are fucking funny? Are we hypocrites and lose part of our Offederati membership benefits? Is it that we are able to see a difference between classifying an entire group of low income, uneducated people compared to a stupid, humerous haircut? What about those mullet-sportin’ upperclass, non-trailer living businessmen? Do we get Offederati membership points back if the mullet wearer has all of his teeth and works for IBM?

What about those of us who privately, jokingly call ourselves or others “retard” but have enough sense and compassion to realize that there may be someone listening who has a mentally retarded child and could be deeply hurt by hearing the words used as a derogatory insult? Does having enough tact to know when to keep our mouths shut to spare someone pain make us a member of the Offederati? So be it. I just think it makes the offender look like a tactless lout.

It is no secret that some members of this board get hurt when the unnecessary fat reference is thrown into a rant. I personally do not see it as a big deal, in fact, a lot times I see it as nothing more than just part of the physical description in a story. Go back and do a search for those fat bashing threads and see what you can find of me.

But here is the thing that separates the two of us. I know that some people are really hurt by those words so again, I DON’T USE THEM! Simple as that! Is it really that hard to replace a word with something that isn’t going to hurt someone?

You talk about bullying but fail to see that purposefully hurting members of this board with hateful words is bullying at its worst. To mock their hurt with “Offederati” and “PC Police” is despicable.

As I said earlier, I have been on the SDMB for almost 6 years. A lot of wonderful Dopers who had a lot to offer this message board have left because of the bullshit that has taken over the board. If I seem caustic and hateful like essvee said in her cowardly sniping driveby it is because I am getting increasingly pissed that the level of this place is going right down the shitter with juvenile bullshit. I am getting increasingly pissed that long time quality posters are getting run out by shit like Offederati titles.

You have taken it upon yourself to play some bullshit junior high game of standing on the sideline and taunting the two sides of an argument by saying “fight fight fight” just so you can jump into the fray.

Grow up.

jlzania - Thanks!

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. I’m so glad to hear that! My offer of assistance still stands.

When you get to the point where you want to know where to go, for what type of financial aide etc, let me know.

Also, I’m moving to Texas soon. A little place called “Corsicana” (I probably butchered the spelling.

Anyway, good luck, as lezlers said, you’ll be MUCH happier!!

And now, back to your regularly scheduled “customers suck” rant :smiley:

CanvasShoes–nope. You didn’t butcher it. You spelled it right. Welcome to Texas. Hope ya enjoy our two seasons–Summer and Not Summer.:smiley:

–they do when they can, which is always nice. As for the language thing, I’ve learned a wee little bit of Spanish, enough for me to sort of communicate with the customers a little bit. I should’ve mentioned that. My bad.:frowning: It just irritates me that there are some customers who just don’t speak English is all. :frowning:

And no, I shouldn’t be forced to learn 2 languages just because I have a job where I a)am one of the few ‘white people’ on the crew and b)some of my customers do not speak english. I’m not getting paid enough for that shit.

IDBB

Did you miss the part where it was suggested that especially in Texas, learning the Spanish language can greatly enhance your ability to get better (ie higher paying, greater satisfaction) job??? You may not be getting paid enough in your present job to warrent this, but it could indeed be the key to getting a better paying job.

Aw hell, wring–why don’t you just come out and say it? Texas is going to be an integrated Mexican state by the end of the century because Mexicans will out number white people by that point. :frowning:

IDBB

(bolding mine)

You know, I’ve tried meticulously to extend the benefit of the doubt to IDBB’s rants about her workplace in the past.
I understand that the written word is often subject to misinterpretation. Lord knows, I’m not a particularily effective writer.
I used to think that she was just a stupid little twit who refused to accept responsibilty for the fact that her lack of education and marketable skills kept her working ill-paid retail jobs.
However, her last statement is proof positive to me that she’s little more than a whiny white bigot with an incredible sense of entitlement.
Thanks for finally making your true colors glaring obvious,**IDBB **.

You’re just a nasty nasty piece of work
Case closed.

Yes… The frowny face seems to give it away. Learn Spanish, move, or shut the fuck up.

Forget it. I’m not even going to answer that. I’m going to let this thread die.

IDBB

Add me in as someone who was trying desperately to stay out of this. Really though IDBB. I used to look forward to your rants the same way I look forward to the latest from Jean Teasdale and hubby Rick.

Do you realize what immigrants risk to make a new life in this country? You won’t even take the risk of clicking on the DeVry website and making a better life for yourself. If you are the quality of worker in your area of Texas I have no doubt Mexican immigrants will be taking your job. I have no problem with that.

What exactly entitles you to any job? Especially one you complain incessantly about while doing nothing to further your lot in life. Please keep thinking you are better than the Mexican immigrant population. Just realize if I had a choice of who to hire as an employer my choice would be easy.

Finally this

is not going to work.

You don’t get to spew nonsense and then ask that no one call you on it. Do you see other posters with disclaimers asking only those who agree with them to post to their thread? You may imagine you have a dedicated fan club waiting to hear your latest trivial complaint. I seriously doubt that membership measures over one.

If you actually did something to improve yourself you might find you get respect. We have been holding our breath quite long enough waiting for that to happen.