A legal proposal

This is correct. There is some confusion about these terms, so perhaps it is good to understand them as ordered in a hierarchy.

Rule of retreat. Wherever the victim is, before using deadly force, all avenues of safe retreat must be foreclosed.

However, there a certain places (places we ordinarily imagine a person retreating to) that we think a person should not be compelled to retreat from.

This produced the Castle Doctrine, which states that no retreat is required (even if it could be done in perfect safety) from the victim’s home.

Over time, a few more places got added to this jurisprudentially or by statute. A sort of Castle Doctrine Plus, which holds that retreat is also not required from one’s workplace or one’s car.

Before going further, one should note that the rule of retreat is not a sanction for the activities of the assailant, but prophylactic. Knowing that it can be difficult to prove what occurred during an encounter between two people when, because of that encounter, one of them ends up dead, the rule of retreat operates to disfavor the creation of those scenarios.

Anyway, within the last several years, Castle Doctrine Plus has been thought to be inadequate to protect law-abiding folks (an assessment with which I do not agree) and Stand Your Ground has come into vogue. SYG states that one never has to retreat from a place in which one is lawfully located.

This rule allows (to its supporters) the swift administration of natural justice. But to those of us who are not prepared merely to take a shooter’s say-so, it creates an evidentiary lacuna. The question is: Does the benefit of relieving people from having to retreat from places they have a right to be (in the still very uncommon circumstance of being threatened with deadly force*) outweigh the tendency of this situation to present, after the fact, with these evidentiary gaps.

  • This is a difference in worldview. SYG supporters seem to perceive the world as fundamentally hostile and our ability to punish lawbreakers as hopelessly inadequate. Thus SYG is needed to parry a menacing world. Suffice it to say, I think this is overblown (and more the consequence of internal psychodramas) than a reflection of just how often people are genuinely imperiled with death.

Florida then adopted a Stand Your Ground Plus, which not only incorporates SYG, but also immunizes those asserting SYG from prosecution. This is an inversion that approaches lawlessness, in my view. The trial is precisely what separates the real-deal SYG wheat from the pretextual chaff.

SYG Plus was the cause of what first made this case so galvanizing: that Zimmerman could say “Yeah, I shot him. But I was defending myself. And therefore you cannot arrest me and try me and examine this claim.”

Now, ultimately, that was undone. But all those who wonder “Why is this run-of-the-mill self-defense case engendering so much angst?” might want to inquire whether sparing a self-defender the outrage of raising his allegations at trial and having them challenged is worth the social ill of the perception that people are being permitted to get away with murder without even having to at least subject his claim of self-defense to prosecutorial challenge.

Again, this depends on worldview. If you think “Well, yeah, it’s not all that unlikely that maybe one day I’ll have to kill someone in self-defense and I would hate to have to go to trial over it,” you’ll see it one way. If you rather (the less unhinged view, as I see it) understand killing in self-defense to be an extraordinary event that a few people are unlucky enough to have to experience, you may be more inclined to consider a trial a necessary (social peace preserving) ordeal.

But, to answer you question: No my proposal does not alter any of the rules of retreat or exceptions thereto. It simply addresses the party who bears the burden (and the quantum of proof in meeting that burden) of showing that the applicable have been complied with.

And, to be sure, this proposal does not require an indictment or a trial. A prosecutor is still free to make the determination that the evidence in a case points to a successful self-defense claim under whatever applicable standard, and decline to press charges.

This is certainly the popular perception of events, but I question whether it’s accurate. Certainly Zimmerman never asserted SYG, nor did he ever challenge the legality of his arrest based on SYG. Rather, all we can say is that Zimmerman simply asserted self-defense and the state initially declined to arrest. Whether they did so because they determined that the SYG law immunized Zimmerman from arrest, or because they decided (as per my paragraph above) that this case presented a successful self-defense claim under any circumstances is not clear from the record, I don’t think.

My first thought upon reading it is that it treats the death of the alleged victim as a rationale to assume guilt, or at least to make it easier to prove guilt.

Why should that be so? My using force against someone without justification is illegal whether or not they die from it. Is the fact that they did die evidence that I wasn’t justified in using force? I would say no. And, since it seems to me that this law does treat it as evidence, I’d have to reject it on that basis.

Castle doctrine not only states you have no duty to retreat in your home, it also creates the presumption that anyone forcibly entering your home that has no right to be there puts you in grave danger at risk of serious bodily injury or death. Your proposal eliminates the presumption of imminent danger/death in one’s home (castle doctrine) and forces the lone homeowner to bear the burden of showing how they were in fact in danger.

The purpose of SYG is not to mete out swift justice nor do its supporters believe our ability to punish lawbreakers is inadequate. The purpose is not to shift the role of the justice system to the individual. The was well articulated by Una Person in the other SYG thread:

And myself, from later in that thread:

In FL at least, the person asserting the SYG defense must do so based on a preponderance of the evidence. But even in simple self defense cases, where there is a plausible claim the burden to show that the killing was not in fact self defense should rest on the prosecution, and the standard should be beyond a reasonable doubt.

This presumption seems to take things almost as far one way as SYG takes it the other way. I’d only support it if Kent has an SYG immunity provision (and I don’t want that.)

Could we get a cite for the study? I’d love to examine it and try to refute it.

I’m fairly certain this isn’t what the law says. You can’t run around starting fights and shooting people when they fight back*.

  • The law does allow for an aggressor to reclaim a SYG defense if he clearly attempts to withdraw from the fight. I don’t see that as anywhere near the same thing as “shoot another person when things get too rough for him”.

The trouble that people run into is when they think it was 18 feet, but it was actually 24 feet, or they thought the guy had a gun, but it was actually (insert anything here, from an airsoft toy to a camera). I’m not comfortable sending people to prison because they misjudged the distance by a few feet.

You realize that there is a SYG hearing, which I believe has a preponderance of evidence standard, in order to successfully immunize oneself from prosecution? In other words, the victim gets his day in (mini-)court with the preponderance of evidence standard you’d like to see. And they can be arrested if the police have “probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful” Cite

You sort of tipped your hand didn’t you? “I’d love to take a closer look at it,” might be a better attitude. Just saying. Fair question though: it would be interesting to study this further.

My cite is the Economist, which I quoted in full. You can use google as well as I can (though I’d recommend the use of site:*.edu if you’re not familiar with that trick).

Careful. Such actions may not be de jure legal, but they may be de facto permitted by the law. You need to dig to that 2nd level. The fact is homicide has gone up in SYG states, as well as assertions of self-defense. I have a problem with that.

Incidentally, nobody has linked to a definitive treatment of self-defense and the law in various jurisdictions, including abroad. This matter deserves investigation and I for one have opinions that aren’t exactly set in stone.

The 21 feet idea is for a person with a holstered pistol against a knife wielding attacker. It actually has nothing to do with being able to retreat safely. Being able to retreat depends on the totality of the circumstances - distance, other defensive barriers like locked doors or being able to drive away. The last thing I’d want to do is engage in a foot race against a knife wielding bad guy, at any distance.

And that is the problem with a duty to retreat. You are expected to weigh all of these factors in a rational way when you are being threatened with death. And then after you do so, and determine you have no choice but to shoot the bad guy, then a jury gets to undertake the same calculus you did, except they do it from a point of relative safety.

Of course, this thread isn’t about a duty to retreat or even SYG if I read it correctly. This thread is about forcing the victim of a violent crime to prove their innocence rather than the prosecution proving their guilt. I’m going to say that’s bad.

This is Great Debates, of course the tactic is to refute a study. No need to be coy about it. Unfortunately the Economist articledoesn’t cite it’s claims.

That being said, it’s conclusions drawn after only cursory review of the facts such as in the Marrissa Alexander case do not help the credibility of the article.

First, this needs a cite that is reviewable. Second this ignores the implications on defensive gun use. Without examining both positives and negatives, no conclusions should be drawn.

Are you looking for a state by state, or country by country comparison? I’m not sure what the value in that would be for the purposes of the hypothetical discussion of how to draft laws in Kent. Appeals to popularity and all that.

I haven’t bothered to dig up which states are considered “SYG” and their crime stats, but since Florida is the focus, here is Florida murder rate for the last couple of decades:

1991 = 9.4
1992 = 9
1993 = 8.9
1994 = 8.3
1995 = 7.3
1996 = 7.5
1997 = 6.9
1998 = 6.5
1999 = 5.7
2000 = 5.6
2001 = 5.3
2002 = 5.5
2003 = 5.4
2004 = 5.4
2005 = 5
2006 = 6.2
2007 = 6.6
2008 = 6.3
2009 = 5.5
2010 = 5.2
2011 = 5.2

While it’s probably technically correct to say that homicides have gone up (in absolute numbers) since the law was passed in 2005, I think you’d be hard-pressed to prove that it was anything related to the SYG law. For all we know the passage of the law might have been the cause of the low-point in 2005 (given all the media stories about it after the law passed).

BTW, if any of you read “The Atlantic” you should stop now and never pick it up again: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/07/fifty-years-murder-america-mapped/67311/

The first chart is stupidly useless. They might as well have just mapped population #'s by state. The second one is just plain wrong. Nevada doesn’t have unusually high murder rates (source). I feel sorry for whichever “school” graduated Philip Bump.

If the study had any merit, it would have controlled for more general trends in homicide. In other words it would have used regression analysis. If it didn’t consider such controls, then it should be tossed. Also the heightened murder in 2006-2008 is noteworthy (20%+), though again I’d need to look at a decent baseline.

Yeah, you wouldn’t want the facts to get in the way of pre-determined conclusions, would you? Snark!

I’m going to concede this. The Economist is a respected secondary source-better than most- but stronger evidence is better evidence.

Yeah, and NRA reports of defensive gun use invariably won’t control for the possibility that the crook would have run away once spotted. That’s what happened next door to me in an early morning break-in.

If you get a measure of one effect, it gives a sense of the magnitudes that a countervailing effect would need to overcome it.

You look to empirical experience to judge the effects of various laws. You look to history to discover the reasons why certain laws were passed. It’s not about popularity, it’s about grounding policy in empirics rather than emotion or fact-free suppositions.

Finally and overall: I agree that we need to dig a little deeper.

While people are all hot and bothered by SYG laws and self-defense more generally, I’ll throw this little bomb in here:

Remember the executive orders Obama signed after Sandy Hook? One of them was a Presidential Memorandum directing the CDC to research the causes and prevention of gun violence. Well, they did and guess what they found:

Source