A long rant about the Short Strand

The BBQ Pit
1

The Short Strand is a small (approximately 3,000) Catholic enclave completely surrounded by an approximately 90,000 strong Protestant population in East Belfast. It has no post office, no pharmacy, no medical services - they’re all in adjoining neighbourhoods.

Since the middle of May the community has been under siege from its loyalist neighbours. The residents cannot use any of the services outside its boundaries, as they have been ordered not to do so by loyalist paramilitaries and the shop owners (etc) themselves have been ordered not to serve any Catholic foolish enough to try. In addition there are ongoing assaults on the Short Strand residents: every day the houses along the perimeter are hit by various objects including all sorts of missiles, pipe bombs, petrol bombs, paint bombs and even gunfire. These houses are all boarded up on the sides that face the boundary - with people still living inside them. There is currently a project for the area’s children to paint new boards in cheery colours - an attempt to brighten up the barriers they are forced to erect for their own safety.

The RUC, PSNI whatever you want to call them are doing nothing (worse than nothing, in fact, but this rant is going to be long enough as it is). They know what’s going on. There are security cameras erected all around the area. Yet for some reason they don’t seem to be able to prevent the attacks or to apprehend the perpetrators.

Would this be allowed to happen in any other “civilised” country in 2002? If this kind of siege were even to begin in the ghettos in your city, how long would it take for a stop to be put to it? Not bloody three months it wouldn’t. Why is it OK in Northern Ireland?

The residents have put together a website here with photographs and a diary to document what is being done to their community, since the media seem to have very little interest in doing so. I read the site before I visited the Short Strand and even so I was not prepared for what I saw with my own eyes. I left the place choked up and virtually speechless.

There have been various threads on the SDMB recently about whether it’s ok to hate certain people. I feel absolutely no qualms about saying I hate the people who are terrorising the Short Strand, and the police and the government who are allowing them to do so. Go on and tell me it’s the wrong attitude to take, I don’t care. I hate them. There is nothing else I can do.

And I hate that even more :frowning:

2

Apparently the Short Strand residents are fighting back as well in similar fashion.

These guys are really mad.

3

Grienspace, when no one else is coming in to help them, would you judge them for fighting back?

I do not support violence as a means of conflict negotiation, but that is all these people are left with. it is completely unacceptable that the Residents of Short Strand are reduced to this.

4

This just hasn’t been reported over in the States that I know of, even in Boston. It may simply be that we’re so inured to news of the Troubles after all these generations that it takes actual deaths, even multiple, innocent deaths, to get attention. If nobody is actually getting killed so far, that can even perversely look like progress.

I don’t know what else to say. The hatreds took a long time to build up, and certainly will take some time to dissipate, too.

5

Well, Twisty’s right. When people are coming under a sustained assault for months on end, without receiving any assistance from the police, it is completely unrealistic to think they’re all just going to stand around and do nothing - and it’s also completely unfair to dismiss them as “fighting back in similar fashion”. Their reaction is understandable, the loyalists’ pro-action is not.

I’d like to point out a couple inaccuracies in that article you linked to.

This is completely untrue and you will note that every time this allegation has been made there is not even an attempt to substantiate it. The residents I spoke to were absolutely adamant that the IRA’s role has been only to prevent violence - to keep retaliation to a minimum. They know that every time a brick is thrown back it just encourages the loyalists further. The people in the Short Strand just want to get their lives back to normal and would be extremely irate if the IRA (or any other nationalist group) were stirring up trouble. But the only negative comment I heard about them was that many people were frustrated that the IRA “won’t allow them to defend their homes”.

The article refers to “local volunteers carrying walky-talkies sat on street corners hoping to prevent any further trouble”. In all likelihood these volunteers were IRA men.

Again, not true. People in the Short Strand are still living in these boarded up houses. Several of them came out and spoke to us.

The houses in Cluan Place have been “evacuated” ie the people formerly living there have moved out but the UVF have moved in. Most of the only other houses along the “peace line” (there are no houses at all on the Protestant side of much of the border) have been empty for years. You can see this from the state of deterioration of the roofs.

3,000 people surrounded by 90,000. It beggars belief to think the Short Strand residents would unilaterally provoke hostilities, especially during a time when their traditional defenders are constrained by a peace agreement from properly defending them. If you went there and spoke to the residents and saw the fear on their faces, listened to them warning their children and guests to stay away from the walls and keep their voices down so the loyalists on the other side couldn’t hear they were there, you’d see who the real victims are.

On Saturday evening there was a discussion at the Short Strand Community Centre, open to all. The purpose was to have an open dialogue about sectarianism and what it is doing to the community. About halfway through the schedule it had to be abandoned due to rioting caused by loyalists’ efforts at participation in the dialogue: pipe bombs.

6

I agree with you ruadh that no one should have to live in these conditions. It is a terrible state of affairs for any community to have to live with.

I think it is important to accept that is is not the only area (far from it) which is facing this type of oppression:
Tigers bay has suffered similar attacks at the hands of neighbouring republicans. As have smaller protestant communities in Ardoyne and Maghera too.

It is completely unacceptable that anyone should have to live under such conditions, but don’t lose sight of the fact that the problems arise from hatred in both communites and no one side can be laid to blame fully.

Some day the hatred will lessen and we can live in peace. Ruadh, you learning to hate and perpetuating hate will not assist the healing in any community.

7

Hating people for being hateful fuckbastards is different from hating them for being Catholic or Protestant.

Hating people for what they do is different from hating people for what and who they are.

8

There are many, as you say, “fuckbastards” in both communities.

But if hating people solely because you believe they hate you is justifiable in your eyes, then we can never have any possibility of peace.
Want we need is understanding and respect for each culture, and this understanding works both ways, or it doesn’t work at all.

9

Aro,
tell that to the PSNI who are doing nothing to help.

10

That may seem the correct way to think but in places like NI it wouldn’t work.

People from both sides have done enough to the other side to merit hatred.

Both sides need to trust the other and stop looking back to the past. Fucked if I know how they’re are going to do this but it could be worse.

It could be Israel/Palestine.

11

The PSNI are involved every day in the Short Strand.

If there is no police presence in the Short Strand they are being neglectful in their duty to the community, if there are many police on patrol the community is being repressed. What can they do?

The PSNI try their best, but can never please anyone, regardless. The fault for any of this does not lie at their door. It’s a fine line they walk.

The problem is the playground rant of “you started it”, “no, you did” bullshit. The police get caught in the middle trying to deal with both as fairly as possible. Don’t blame the (attempted) peacemakers.

12

That’s true. I think, in analysing my own position a little more, that I would rather say that the actions are wrong and despicable, and avoid hating people as much as possible. Thanks for making me put myself right.

Of course, what needs to happen is for people to get to a position where they can say “these actions are bad and wrong, let’s not do them” rather than “these actions are bad and wrong, they were done to us we must settle the score” or, worse “these actions are bad and wrong, and we believe that They wish to do them to Us”. But that takes a lot of time, a lot of trust and a lot of emotional investment.

I suppose it’s all about indocrinating a generation not to see things as Us/Them. But, you’ve got to want to teach your children that way, and not everyone does yet.

It’s vitally important that the PSNI do more - the government and state apparatus have to minimise opportunities for mistrust as far as possible.

I’m just rambling. Of course I want people in the world to treat each other well rather than badly, and I’m sorry if it comes across as pointless handwringing.

13

addendum - I posted that right after Yojumbo - before aro’s post went through.

Also, the last sentence is not meant to come across snarkily! I just re-read it and realised that it could be read that way. Oops. It’s supposed to be a sincere apology for being a clueless fuckwit.

14

Well, Aro, I have a couple suggestions of what the PSNI could do in the Short Strand if they really wanted to help:

[ul]
[li]They could stop loyalists from attacking the place for one thing. There most certainly is a heavy enough police presence in the area that they could do so, or at least do a better job of doing so. [/li][li]When such an attack does happen they could try to restrain the attackers instead of waiting for the nationalists to respond and then attacking them, as happened on Saturday evening. [/li][li]They could stop feeding information to loyalists about the people living there (and no I’m not suggesting that all of them are doing this, but based upon particular events that have happened it is clear to the residents that at least some of them are). [/li][li]And if it really is the IRA causing the trouble, well, they’ve got the whole bloody place on camera, why not use their video evidence to prove it and put the troublemakers away? [short answer: because it isn’t] [/li][/ul]

Right on the second count, wrong on the first. Because if the police are in the Short Strand then they aren’t doing their duty to the community because where they should be is in the surrounding areas preventing loyalists from throwing bombs and missiles into the place. When they do come into the Short Strand their purpose is not to protect its residents.

No, the problem is people who choose to wash their hands of the situation by dismissing each side as being as bad as the other when all the facts demonstrate otherwise.

15

Originally posted by ruadh:

*Well, Aro, I have a couple suggestions of what the PSNI could do in the Short Strand if they really wanted to help:

They could stop loyalists from attacking the place for one thing.
There most certainly is a heavy enough police presence in the area that they could do so, or at least do a better job of doing so. *

If the residents would work with the police rather than against perhaps there would be more success.

*When such an attack does happen they could try to restrain the attackers instead of waiting for the nationalists to respond and then attacking them, as happened on Saturday evening. *

Were you there on Saturday? Can you be totally sure that your idea of what happened is how it panned out? If so, yes it was terrible on the part of the police. But, as you know, the police are there as peace-keepers, not to entice mobs into pitch battles. You can’t say for sure what the incident on the street was that initiated the response.

*They could stop feeding information to loyalists about the people living there (and no I’m not suggesting that all of them are doing this, but based upon particular events that have happened it is clear to the residents that at least some of them are). *

That is your perception of the situation…where is your evidence? (short answer: you have none). All this statement does is perpetuate more myths, and more hatred between communities. Is that what you really want to do?

*And if it really is the IRA causing the trouble, well, they’ve got the whole bloody place on camera, why not use their video evidence to prove it and put the troublemakers away? [short answer: because it isn’t] *
The new cameras were cut down by the residents who thought it was repressive. Remember? And you well know that video evidence has rarely been enough to convict anyone of anything in this country. The charges would be luaghed at, or cause an angry reaction in the (protective) community, which is what the police are trying to avoid.

Right on the second count, wrong on the first. Because if the police are in the Short Strand then they aren’t doing their duty to the community because where they should be is in the surrounding areas preventing loyalists from throwing bombs and missiles into the place. When they do come into the Short Strand their purpose is not to protect its residents.

Again, that is your perception of the situation. Many eye-witness accounts disagree.

No, the problem is people who choose to wash their hands of the situation by dismissing each side as being as bad as the other when all the facts demonstrate otherwise.
(bolding mine.)

Do you honestly suggest that the IRA / Republican / Nationalist community have never perpetrated any crime against UDA / loyalists / unionists? Which of us is distorting ‘facts’ now…? If you can’t see that you are only concerning yourself with the ‘facts’ as given to you by one side, how can ever plan to see the whole picture?

Did this not happen?

Read this synopsis.

Plenty of people hold conflicting views of the situation from you. Does this make them all wrong? Maybe you should aim to be more objective in your analysis.

16

Aro,
There are hatemongering idiots on both sides of the equation, and the subdued protestant communities are as victimised as subdued catholic communities. That is not in question here.

What is in question is what is being done to help these people.

Why aren’t the police going in and arresting rioters?
Why aren’t the police investigating who threatened the shop owners and doctors so that they cannot serve Short Strand “taigs”?
Why do the residents feel that PSNI are against them?

Why are the Short Strand community reduced to organising a fun day for their children to paint their boarded up windows in bright colours to help cheer them up?

Why are the children forced to get a bus to the Catholic school?

Why are these people living in fear, and what is being done about it?

Wait a second. you’re quoting Peter Robinson? He of the Party that believes in a “Protestant Government for Protestant People”? He thinks this is all about parades?

Catch yourself on.

17

So everyone knows:
I don’t agree with all or any of the opinions I am posting here, merely pointing out that your opinions are not the only perception of the situation as it exists. I don’t supporet the DUP any more than I do Sinn Fein. Whether it is Peter Robinson or Gerry Kelly, they both add their personal brand of political spin to the situation. Both are as bad as each other, and taking sides and name-calling is not advancing anyones cause.

On an international board such as this, I don’t believe you should be raising personal analysis of a situation and posting it in the guise of facts. All this does is add to the vast amount of misinformation about this country of ours in the eyes of the world. Sure, voice an opinion. But let people know it is an opinion. I’m sure many people read this thread and find themselves believing the opinions here as gospel without accepting the need for further analysis or thought of their own. It is this that I find distasteful.

Thank you for this point. It seems it was in question from Ruadh’s posts.

But what would you have the police do? They get physically attacked when they intefere, get demonised when they don’t.
Should they re-introduce internment? Take us back to the 70’s and perpetuate a further generation of random, thoughtless hatred? It is not the kids throwing bottles on the street who are the real cause of the conflict. They do arrest rioters. They break up roits, then the police get charged or sued for firing plastic bullets at juveniles. Most of the perpetrators are minors, the law is powerless to prevent this sort of attack.

I’m sure the bullying of shopkeepers / doctors has been investigated and will be dealt with. The bus to school is a temporary fix to a long-standing issue - can you really expect the kids to walk in the midst of the surrounding hatred? The situation yells out for solutions, but what are they?

I sympathise entirely with the situation, and we all wish it could be different. It is not simple, if it was there would be no conflict.
I just don’t think abusing the police for inaction is a positive step forward. I know there is more that could be done, there always is.
It is in finding steps that work for BOTH communities where the problems and answers both lie.

18

My apologies if it came across that I believed that you held Peter Robinson’s views.
My intent was to show that while Peter Robinson’s views are different to that of Ruadh (or myself) it is not a fair comparison, as Peter Robinson is a hate-filled bigot and his comments should not be representative of anyone. Unfortunately, he is.

My utmost apologies to you for not making that clearer.

It wasn’t my intent to suggest you did. My apologies if that was how it appeared.

Where is the misinformation? The Short Strand Residents are under siege, and they feel that the PSNI (and the assembly)aren’t doing enough to protect them.
Where is the misinformation in that statement?

I would be worried if people accepted what I say as fact instead of opinion. If I post with cites, then you can assume that what I post is what I believe to be fact. What I post as opinion should be obvious to people that it is opinion.

That being said, I try to be as truthful as possible.

Arrest the ringleaders.

Obviously not. I would suggest dealing with them as the law allows. Evidence, arrest, trial. Law and order.

When? Nothing been done yet.

But who is inciting the people to demonstrate against children?

The problem is that the Police ARE being inactive. How many of the 90,000 strong community surrounding Short Strand are under siege? How many of the 90,000 strong community are under fear of their lives for going to the doctor?

The problem is Aro, that there are not enough moderate voices like yourself speaking out. Its very easy to say “Yes, but Tigers Bay residents are under threat” whih is true, but two wrongs do not cancel each other out. ALL of these problems need to be addressed. and at the moment, None of them are.

19

I withdraw my cruder comment about misinformation. Uncalled for, if if this is being debated in the Pit. Sorry about that.

As for who the ringleaders are - who really knows? Would it really help to arrest them anyway? What if the community itself is the true ring-leader?
The fault lies in (lack of) education. The parents grow up in hatred and pass the hatred on before the kids can walk. It is so ingrained, indoctrinated, and out of the hands of the state.

[aside]
My girlfiends niece, a catholic child (long story) of six, visits every weekend to stay with us. It is good for her to see us (in the countryside, with dogs & space to play). She lives in New Lodge (North Belfast) during the week. Even she has told of stories where she has been asked to chant “we hate the RUC” and to throw bricks at the RUC at any opportunity. The community ingrains hatred before she even understands anything about the what or why. I think it is very sad.
[/aside]

I would suggest dealing with them as the law allows. Evidence, arrest, trial. Law and order. *
Evidence, arrest, trial, prison ----> out in 3 months due to lax prison / sentencing laws. The whole Maze Prison is currently lying dormant, no prisoners (but half the prison staff remain to avoid break*-ins**, conversely)

*But who is inciting the people to demonstrate against children? *
The local community is. Peer-pressure, parental pressure, serious lack of education or opportunity. It’s just something to do.

And its going to get worse, as the chronic ‘brain-drain’ figures grow, with any right-minded moderate leaving as soon as possible to go to…anywhere but here.
Only the hardcore will remain, to carry on fighting.

20

I always found it funny in a pathetic way that that there’s been generations of murder between these two people, when the main difference between them are the minor differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. I suppose that it’s really a minor issue in the conflict, and the real issue is power, but is it so impossible that they can’t step back and realize that their differences are laughably minor? It’s like fighting for generations over “taste great” vs “less filling”.