I’m not a cop, but your story sounds dubious to me too. From what you’ve said, I hear drugs, selling a gun to some guy who may or may not be in a gang with a tattoo on his neck, some other guns that are stolen on the same day as a murder, one of which might have been the same type of gun as that used in the murder, and you ranting about pigs lying to you. Hmmm…
Sorry, I’ve taken the Reid Technique and the OP is an idiot. (Don’t even have to question him for that)
If the police think YOU had sold HIM the murder weapon, then I think he was implicated.
[sub]unless you and I define ‘implicated’ differently[/sub]
Are you Stan Shmenge?
Mr. Krebbs you seemed in the scenario to be the very personification of what cops see as a loose end. Everything you’ve described is almost blackletter procedure, and yes, it had a negative effect on you, but the search for justice isn’t pretty and sometimes, it’s not an entirely honorable endeavour yet as a reactive force, the police HAVE to do things that will eventually offend the sensibilities of the public, it’s a necessary evil. There are tricks that cops use, obfuscation is one of them, and to a point, it’s effective. Reid doesn’t advocate lying though, it’s an entirely different psychological mechanism. Further, no cop in his right mind would promise something he or she hadn’t gotten the nod from the states atty for, unless he or she just chooses NOT to arrest and book you for a minor crime (possession, etc). You’d never hear a cop say “I can get you off on that murder charge if you tell me where the drugs are” any one that did would be a fool, knowing the charges would never stick.
Cops have to do things that are far worse than besmirching their own honor in the name of justice and preserving the peace and safety of the population. In order to fight less than honorable men, there comes a time when you have to get down in the mud with them, these gray areas sometimes trap cops, other times they don’t, that’s why so much psychological testing is done. Really though, how do you think this all happens? It’s not the movies, the cops aren’t always right and the bad guys aren’t always wrong in a moral sense, but they’re not enforcing morality, they’re forcing laws, sometimes it’s hard to see the difference.
You, I think, had a pre-conceived notion about how the police (and people in general) are supposed to behave, and when that didn’t come to life for you, you swung too far the other way. I submit that your experience, while not a good one, was typical of homocide investigations. Those are typically the most serious and are pursued with the most vigor. Sometimes that vigor can translate into things unintended. I would ask that you revisit your position with an open mind, there are bad cops, just as there are bad people, sometimes bad people make good cops and sometimes good people make bad cops.
I will tell you the one thing I tell everyone I know and care about when it comes to dealing with the police in pseduo-custodial situations. 1. Yes sir (or ma’am). 2. No sir (or ma’am). 3. How can I be of help to you? With this I say 'if you can help with an investigation, it’s almost your duty, but it’s not required. If it looks like they want to take you into custody, you can go right to step 4 from step one, which is: 4. I would like to speak to my lawyer immediately. Then sit down, and shut up. Nothing they say after you ask for a lawyer means anything. Questions have to stop until an attorney gets there.
No, I was speaking in generalities there, sorry for the confusion. Whenever someone mentions registration of weapons, someone will eventually point to Nazi Germany, even though it’s not entirely factual and isn’t germaine to modern registration. The crux of the problem I have with this scenario is that you say the bloke was ‘eligible’. My question, how would you know? Not being crappy, but how? There are ways to make that “harassment” go away or not have to exist at all. First and foremost update the systems the ATF/DOJ/States use to manage these things. We’ve got drivers licences down pat, use that same model for firearms cards, certify through testing, paid for by the owners, that; 1. The person wishing ownership of a firearm is mentally capable, trained on its’ use, and free from crimes that would currently prevent ownership. Further, concealed carry would be the next logical step, which would be allowed with further training and yearly certification. My logic is that if you’ve got people walking around with the ability to take a life, the least they can be is trained as well as a bloody armed security guard.
We don’t believe in coincidence. Reasonable people could be led to the same conclusion those cops made. Ignore the hate that clouds your thinking and look at this from THEIR point of view. Understand first, then seek to be understood.
Like I said above, there are ways to do it, mine is just one. I do think however that it shouldn’t cost taxpayers any more than the enforcement side of chasing down the bad actors. All the costs, training, credentialling, reviews etc should be borne by the gun owner, and truth in sentencing would go a long way to curb the minor league baddies.
Excellent. Considering that I have mentioned, multiple times, that the cops came to my apartment [ETA: but I was not home] prior to the day that my guns were stolen I guess you’d have to assume that the murder was committed prior to the search of my apartment. My apartment was searched September 26, 2007, the first day of 2007’s fall quarter at my university.
Look up Adama (Adema) Watson or surname Walton if you want the actual date of the murder; he was killed in a moving vehicle sometime in Sept. 2007.
No. The individual who I sold the .44 mag to and the individual who was convicted of criminal assistance are not one in the same; I’ll even use their real first names: I sold the gun to a guy named Cal, who I met on a grand total of four occasions; I never met or even saw Freddy, the individual who the police wanted. The police were never interested in Cal.
Why is this so hard to grasp? I implicated Cal, the guy I sold the firearm to, myself because he obviously passed the revolver on; the police never brought Cal up or followed up on him (aside from a phone call to me designed to make sure I that remembered the name I gave them).
Huh. Well, that eases my mind some. Part of my problem, personally, is that I am still under the statute of limitations (supposedly three years) for the US District Atty to charge me. Of course, it was the first SPD detective’s partner who told me that I wouldn’t be prosecuted (or cited for the pipes) “on [his] honor,” so that wouldn’t affect a case brought by the ATF.
I’m arguing that being a sneaky motherfucker at work makes for a sneaky motherfucker at home. Furthermore, I do realize that most crimes are solved by testimony and that a confession is the best affordable thing the police can get to this end. I would trade cops who got more cases solved for cops that I could look up to or perhaps think of as decent people. FTR, Army drill sergeants fall into the “pig” category too, because they too regularly lie to the detriment of individuals.
I guess I’m the sort that values the individual over the whole.
That is true and it may be becuase I just don’t see “doing my job” as a pass for immoral behavior. You know, while I was raised in a fundie church we had cops in the congregation, now I wonder where they thought they fell under the whole 9th Commandment thing.
And why do I have to be the guy with an open mind? I was lied to, pulled out of my home without a warrant (“ooh, he has guns!”), lied to some more, forced to miss classes, my home and car were invaded and then my property (firearms, I’m not going there with some pieces of glass) was stolen. I feel I have grievances and guess what: there isn’t a damn thing I can do about them. The ATF claims I’m going to be prosecuted, so I just have to wait 1 1/2 - 2 years to find out. Yes, I have a lawyer although not on retainer - he hasn’t asked for money, yet.
Actually, I did my best to be very helpful with the police until the original detective and ATF “special” agent became aggressive. I shook their hands and invited them into my apartment, for god’s sake - I believed they were there to help me about my case.
I meant eligible in the sense that I took reasonably measures to insure he was 18+ (driver’s license) and not a felon (I asked him if he had a record).
We could talk about the driving being a privilege vs. a right thing (also a stupid stance for the .gov to take, IMHO), but we’ll agree to disagree if these would be reasonable measures. I’m not going to say a prospective owner shouldn’t have training, but I feel it is a personal responsibility thing. I still think a lot of law-abiding (more law-abiding than myself) gun owners would go through similar unpleasantries to mine in your scenario.
Why is the citizen the individual that has to give the police the benefit of the doubt when clearly the police don’t give citizens the same courtesy? I think that the police involved in my case (with the exception of one patrol officer) have earned the hate I afford your profession. Just because it’s how one puts meat on his table doesn’t meant that actions taken on the job are “nothing personal” or not an indication of character.
Keep in mind that it would also restrict access to firearms by the poor, who often need guns most.
“I sure do! Say, does this mean I can’t have the gun?”
So… that they can kill each other off? I can’t imagine why poor people need guns more than anyone else.
What else am I gonna use to repel the Imperialist American Government when they trespass into the Sovereign Nation of Mydoublewide to collect the illegal taxes I can prove I don’t owe 'cause the courtroom flag had a gold fringe on it? The smell?
Hurled cans of Pabst Blue Ribbon.
Well, paraphenalia charges in most jurisdictions are what I like to call a “jimmy charge” meaning that finding paraphenalia allows me to jimmy open the box of secrets that is your life in the area you’re currently living it and see if you’re really a bad guy or someone who just likes to have a toke every now and again. If they didn’t find any actual dope, the odds are pretty good that the detective speaks the truth, and for sure, unless you were a complete dick (which it doesn’t sound like you were) the ATF isn’t going to bother with some guy’s one hitter (or hookah/bong/hollowed out pumpkin).
Part of that is true, and honestly the ‘sneaky motherfuckers’ only make up a small portion of cops. Still, we need those sneaky motherfuckers to catch the sneaky dangerous motherfuckers who are an actual threat to you and yours. If you traded cops that never pushed the envelope for the ones who “get results” not only would crimes go unsolved in record numbers, but sticking blindly to procedure means that many innocent people would pay the price. I’m not really an Army man, but I’m not sure what you mean. Recruiters lie, but DI’s don’t have a reason as far as I know.
Well we disagree, the whole is what all of society is built on, i think.
See, now I understand your perspective and get where you’re coming from. I think that acting “immorally” is a person-to-person standard while the laws apply to everyone equally. That seems to be the principal difference.
Like I said, these things happen in the pursuit of justice for the fallen. Your situation sucks, no one can deny that, and I don’t know what the ATF might prosecute you on, so I can’t comment on that, but it’s in your best interest to petition the court to have your property returned, there seems to be a miscarriage of justice here that’s caused by the system as opposed to the arresting authority and that will be worked out in court.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with that, but what kind of transaction records does your state require?
When we boil it down, everything can be chalked up to personal responsibility, can it not? If you hadn’t decided to smoke pot, knowing it’s not legal, the detectives would have nothing to hold over your head and so forth. I think it’s responsible to be knowledgeable and practiced in the use of a weapon you own or could be carrying. Still, we legislate away the need for personal responsibility every single day. The “bailout” is a perfect example of that. It might be true that other owners could go through those things, but guns aren’t water balloons, they have a purpose but they are also dangerous. We don’t legalize unlicensed drivers because it’s dangerous to have people on the roads without the requisite knowledge, I don’t think that guns are all that different than cars in that regard.
Because like most public servants, service in the name of the greater good deserves such a boon be granted. These individuals in your opinion wronged you, and of course, you are free to hate who you wish, but why would you project that hate on to me, or anyone else who hasn’t done anything for or against you? I don’t even know you, but I sure would chase into a burning building after you or run down your attacker or protect you from harm. The courtesy you’re angling for is shown in day-to-day interactions, traffic stops, etc. This was a homocide investigation, much different than reporting your lawn gnome stolen or going 50 in a 35. I suppose I’d ask that you consider that not all cops are out to put it to you and that though you should absolutely be wary of the Gov’t, that hate is a misplaced emotion to cast over the net of the entire LE community.
Oh, and I understand that the ‘poor’ might need guns for protection because their areas are rougher, but guns themselves aren’t cheap (legal ones anyway) and cheap guns aren’t good. If you can afford $400 for a semi-auto pistol, you can afford another $10 or $20 in taxes and fees.
I’m sorry, I couldn’t let this pass with all the rest of your nonsense. Just what the blue hell do you think army drill sergeants lie about exactly? I worked as a training officer supervising army drill instructors for a few years; DIs conduct training, which is fact and skill based. Do you think they lie about basic soldier skills, geneva convention and the laws of war or equipment employment, operation and maintenance?
Please, fight my ignorance :rolleyes:
Ah, an Army story. In Basic Combat Training (although I was in One Station Unit Training at Ft. Benning - BCT and AIT combined), DIs do their absolute best to make you think that you cannot legally leave the Army if you decide while training that the military is not for you. Privates will be told that refusing to train will leave them with a dishonorable discharge; this results in a number of privates drinking glass cleaner or bleach to get a psych EPTS. On to the story.
We had been down range (in actual training instead of at reception batallion) about a week when my platoon was called outside to the motorpool (basically the bottom floor of the bays - they had laundry rooms on ground level but were otherwise on struts, with the actual bays beginning on the second floor). Anyway, the entire company (four platoons of privates) was there. The command sergeant major called a private out of another platoon. He was the first private in our company to refuse to train. The CSM insulted him and asked him several times if he was serious about refusing to train.
Once it was clear to the CSM that the private wasn’t changing his mind, the CSM said something that I couldn’t hear into his radio. Shortly, an MP vehicle pulled straight into the motorpool, two MPs got out, shouted at the kid for being a coward a bit, then they cuffed the private and took him away. We were told how the private would spend the rest of his enlistment in the brig and then be relegated to a life of burger-flipping because of his pending dishonorable discharge.
Not longer after this incident, I was doing yardwork on a Sunday (if he doesn’t go to church, a private gets to mow lawns, paint buildings, etc. on Sundays) and this private was painting the outside railing of the local chow hall. He was working as part of his duties at Return to Home Unit (RHU). He said he was squared away to go home soon. Of course, he wasn’t charged with anything and claimed he didn’t even receive an Article 15. Supposedly the MPs took him to the station where they uncuffed him, told him that he wouldn’t be prosecuted under the UCMJ and then drove him to RHU.
That is the most blatant example of my company’s drill sergeants lying and playing head games; make of it what you will.
What sort of DIs did you work with? If they were ancillary: training soldiers on claymores, IEDs or medical crawls; yeah, those people probably never had a reason to lie.
I’m actually okay with that; I think that more Americans should realize that their safety is ultimately in their own hands. I would love it if 95% of rapists were shot dead by their intended victims.
If we are a country that claims to be free, we should allow the maximum amount of freedom to all citizens (ie, the right to swing your arm anywhere but at my face).
I think that you’re going to have a hard time getting me to believe that prevarication, manipulation and lying to another’s detriment is immoral, regardless of however immoral the manipulatee is.
I sincerely appreciate the advice.
None in private sales. The usual Brady form for guns in stores, plus the Washington state registration form on handguns.
I don’t have a problem with paying the tickets for the pipes; I have a problem with possibly being charged with a felony [article 922(r), I think?] and losing my right to pursue one of the few hobbies I love. Considering that pot has been proven to intoxicate drivers less than alcohol in the UK (I can find the cite if you want), I think it’s pretty reasonable to say that smoking marijuana doesn’t make one an irresponsible gun owner, let alone a violent, jonesing madman.
Mandatory training doesn’t really irritate me, considering it is certainly a smaller and more reasonable breach of freedom than the Brady form is.
You’ll have a hard time proving to me that even most cops have the greater good in mind. They may be brainwashed into thinking they do, but really, when one has discretion there is no excuse for not looking the other way in a variety of cases (mostly drug related).
If I had been trained to do so and it were part of my job, I would run into a burning building for you, too. I might do it anyway, but I have never been faced with that particular situation.
The reason I would project the hate on you is because you are trained in a similar way to the cops who wronged me; you have probably engaged in similar behavior. Furthermore, if some cops are out to get you, doesn’t it make sense to distrust all cops for your own safety? It’s the same reasoning that you use when you always approach a pulled over vehicle at an angle that gives you an advantage over a potential shooter.
Well, I’m not a fan of traffic cops to be honest, but I am not always polite to them when I disagree with their judgment, either.
A used revolver is the answer to the relatively high expense of a reliable firearm. Training is going to cost more than $20 guaranteed; I bet the extra tax would, too. Do you know that the Class III tax stamp cost the same $200 it does today when it was introduced it in the 1930s (may have been late '20s?)?
So you’ll hold still while I punch you in the balls?
Sorry about posting so much in a short time span, but this was a major typo. Correction in bold.
So, just so I am clear on this:
Cops trace gun to you. Cops question you. You feel uncomfortable. Justice system sucks, cops are lying pig rights abusers.
Given that they were investigating the murder of another human being, who was dead, had died, and was made a corpse by a gun you owned (apparently) after it was seized because you might or might not be a drug dealer my sympathy response has not kicked in.
Or else one of Stan’s friends who were “framed”?
Oh, and cite for the “drinking glass cleaner and bleach to get out of boot camp?”
Since when do you have “right” to smoke pot? Last time I checked, marijuana is illegal in this country? (Not that I think it should be, but fact is, you aren’t losing any “right”, since you didn’t have one to begin with.)
I live here in Pittsburgh, and spent the day watching the funeral of the three cops killed in the Poplawski shooting. Forgive me if I’m not very sympathetic to someone whining about being questioned when it was his gun used in a murder.
I feel that I was robbed because my punishment (the seizure) did not fit the crime. The first detective, a patrolman and the ATF special agent all lied to me.
When did I say that I felt that my legal rights were abused? Many of the things that happened were reasonable procedures, many were not. LEOs treat people the same way they did me on a regular basis; I don’t feel that such behavior is acceptable from men who portray themselves as honorable protectors of the community.
I can try to find one, but you would have to wait until some homework is done. Until then, this is my story:
The first incident happened early on and I only saw the guy hauled out on a stretcher. Then the bleach was removed from the storeroom. The next guy was in my platoon, on suicide watch, and while we were learning to field strip and clean our M16s, he went to the bathroom (where the cleaning supply closet was located). This was between week three and five of OSUT because Basic Rifle Marksmanship was week five in 2004 (that may not be so any longer). Anyway, the guy walked out of the latrine with the glass cleaner taking swigs in front of all 50-some of us forming a square around the center of the bay. The DI training us rushed him out with the sergeant first class of our platoon and our remaining DI took over; we never saw the private again. Then all the company cleaning supplies were locked up.
A felony conviction costs you the right to legally own a firearm for virtually forever (no getting to restore your rights ten years later a la a state felony conviction), that was the right that I was referring to.
Jesus. H. Motherfucking. Christ.
I have stated many times that I, Mr. Krebbs, sold a .44 magnum in April of '07 that ended up in the home of an individual involved in a murder that occurred in September '07, the weapon used was a .380 ACP. I just happened to also have a .380 registered in my name that was stolen.
How many times does this have to be repeated? If you all would just tell me, I can just do it all in one post, real quick, okay?