I've had a mighty bad day

The BBQ Pit
1

It all started this morning.

On another mb I post on someone posted the article about the 13-year-old boy who got shot down by police in L.A. The very first comment made was “well, at least they’re thinning the herd.”

http://ktla.trb.com/news/local/la-me-shoot9feb09,0,3567588.story?coll=ktla-news-

It’s called excessive use of police force, and it happens all the f’n time. So I went into this:

No, it won’t happen to our little white kids, but it will happen.

My best friend has to show her stepson articles like this because she’s afraid he’ll end up at the wrong place at the wrong time and something will happen. He’s not allowed to dress in the latest fads, and can’t grow his hair out to get braids because she and his father are afraid people will judge him by his looks.

This is a black family who have had two murders and one rape, none of which got pursued by the police. Tell me this isn’t a racist society. Tell me if I went out there and got raped that the mofo wouldn’t be in jail because I come from a white, affluent family. If my brother was shot in cold blood the way hers was, the violator would be in prison. And if I was strangled and left in a drainage ditch the way that boy’s mother was, you can bet the guy would be in prison.

Then someone said that the reason crimes aren’t solved in the “ghetto” is because they “won’t” give up information.

So, I said, can’t give up information on people is more like it. The kind of retaliation that goes on, we can’t say we’d give up the info either.

But my friend’s brother wasn’t in the ghetto when he got shot. None of us know the whole story because they were all so afraid to talk. The preacher at the funeral looked right at his friends and begged them to talk, but I don’t think they thought they could or they thought they would be next.

He was 21, going to school to be an electrician. God, I know my friend will never sleep a normal night not knowing why it happened.

She’s strong though. I don’t know how. When she was raped, they had so much evidence, DNA, footprints, and a video surveillance tape. But, they didn’t look for him. They didn’t even try.

That’s why I say if it had been me, and I swear, I wish it had been, because that fucker would be in prison right now. I could live with that. I would take it back for her if I could. They’d have caught him the night it happened, because my dad would have showed up in his fancy f’n car and they’d have known who they were messing with. With her though, she had no advocate, no one to make them help her. That mofo is still out there somewhere, probably doing the same thing to other women.

And as far as the 13-year-old in LA, you can look at it however you want, but I hope that fucking shitfucker cop rots in hell. And I hope all of the unsolved crimes in this society get solved in whatever afterlife we have. I swear, I’m not a Christian, but the idea of hell sounds perfect for so many people in this world.

Then I bring up the Amadou Diallo case and this motherfucker goes on to say how Diallo basically got what he deserved because he reached for his wallet after police had told him to stay still. He obviously didn’t know all the facts of the case, or that Diallo was a foreign man who probably thought he was doing the right thing by trying to show ID.

So,I said, Wait, are you defending the police action on Amadou Diallo? If so, I’m stunned.

The man was a foreigner, the details are hazy as to what happened with him pulling his wallet. He probably thought the police wanted to see his ID. Jesus, 41 f’n times! Do you not think that’s a little over-the-top, especially considering the man was NOT ARMED?

Just reading about the guy and looking at his pictures makes me feel so sad. What a waste.
http://www.amadoudiallofoundationinc.com/profile.htm

So, I said, I’m sorry if it seems like I come off as attacking you here, but sometimes you say things that just baffle me. “Thinning the herd,” that just implies that you think what happened is ok. We’re not talking about Billy Bob saying “Hey guys, watch this” and then doing something stupid to end his life.

This is about two children, one of whom got shot. The details are pretty sketchy. Way too sketchy to say that anyone got what they deserved. I don’t think stealing a car is enough of a criminal offense that you deserve to die for it. They were kids. Who knows what lead up to it? I see stories like this and it makes me fear for the children in this country.
I’ve never heard anyone say they actually thought the police did the right thing in the Diallo case. They shot at him 41 fucking times. He was hit by 19 of those bullets and died on the spot. Horrifying.

So, I started to get really upset, like crying at my desk and shit. Today’s one of those days that my heart just hurts. It just does. I can’t look at this stuff and think any of it’s ok. I can’t look at a story about a child getting shot and feel anything but pain.

And everytime I look up the Diallo stuff I cry. Yeah, I do. Every time.

The injustice in this world just tears me to my core. Call me a bleeding heart or whatever. Maybe I am, because just a variety of things I’ve seen in the news over the last few days make me feel like my heart really is bleeding.

This probably is less than coherent, but I’ve actually been crying off and on this entire day, up until maybe five minutes ago. I feel so crazy helpless and I feel like this world is so horrible sometimes and there’s nothing I can do to stop any of it. I have this sense of helplessness that I just can’t remedy.

I feel like this a lot of the time. The news gets to me. I cry when I make donations to the AIDS clinic here in Indy. I don’t feel good about it, I feel like it’s not enough.

Do other people get this upset over the world in general? I mean, is it a normal reaction to be so affected? I think it’s almost weird that more people don’t feel like this. Maybe I’m just depressive or fucked up, I don’t know.

I don’t even think this rant has a real point anymore, and I’m sorry, I just have to get it out somehow.

I feel like that guy is a total racist asshole for saying that shit, saying that boy deserved to die because he stole a car and whatever else happened. I want to punch him right in his fat fucking face.

2

{{{{HUGS}}}}

You sound depressed and also angry. Like a lot of people were after 9/11/01. I think you are a very sensitive person who may also have some problems dealing with emotions. I too cry all the fucking time. I cry just looking at babies. Just fucking looking at them, I have to bite my lip and look away not to give it away. I cry talking about my family. At all. I am starting to cry just typing this. I hope you feel better knowing at least that you are not totally alone. And that those jerks are racist fuckers.

-Ghanima

3

Sorry, but the kid did attack the police:

A child of 13 should not have been driving in the first place. This kid was stupid and paid the price. Yes, it’s sad, but you have no place in blaming the police.

Here’s a clue: people do judge you by the way you look.

If you don’t take a stand then the bad guys have won.

Both of you are equally stupid motherfuckers here. If someone with a gun tells you to stay still, you stay still. No ifs, no buts.

Police are human; they don’t have X-ray vision. It’s a high-stress situation. You obey the man with the gun: if someone is pointing a gun at you, he has already decided to shoot you should the situation warrant it. And yes, the hail of gunfire was OTT.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But it’s not available at the time.

4

I hated to say anything in here but it eats at me hearing you take and place all this anger toward the police. As its being reported now, the officer involved was attacked with a deadly weapon (The vehicle) after a 3.5 miles chase, the car stopped and the car backed into the cruiser resulting in the officer firing into the vehicle, as he (As you or I would) thought his life was in danger with a car being rammed into his. He did not realize this boy was 13, though I don’t know if that changed the issue, a 13 year old and younger have murdered before as well.

Many times people have a tendency to jump on the police, sometimes they deserve it, nothing is perfect. But I would hate to be in those “ghettos” you mention with no police at all.

5

Indygrrl - hugs headed your way. I know they’re just words on a screen, but I honestly know exactly how you’re feeling. I get that way very, very often myself. I’ve stopped reading horrible news stories out loud to my husband because I will always, always start crying in the middle. Sometimes the horrifying events of the world just overtake me and I can’t deal with it. I cry at the thought of bringing much-wanted children into this world to live in this - as much as I want them, I’m terrified of the world we want to bring them into.

I remember back after 9/11 - I lived in NYC at the time, and was just one of millions in the city trying to regain my footing and go into the world without bursting into tears at every ant I stepped on. I realized when my tears were more prevalent than my smiles, something was wrong. 9/11 had only magnified the clinical depression that had started way before the towers fell.

Sometimes we need to give up the chase and seek help - and I only say that because you sound very much like me when I’m in one of my deepest lows. When the world starts to seem like everything is wrong and nothing will fix it, it’s time to get help. Please, please call a therapist. Go talk to them for an hour or so a week. Get out all of your fears and frustrations and tears with them. And if that doesn’t help, look for another solution, maybe medication. It really doesn’t have to be like this.

My email is in my profile - please feel free to use it anytime you need to. I completely understand how you feel, and you’re not alone.

E.

6

Are you serious? How much police protection do you think people get in those places? Hell, the OP mentions how crimes simply were not pursued by the cops. Do you think those were rare exceptions? Because they weren’t. The ghetto minus the cops would be pretty much the same as it is now.

7

Dude, fuck off. Yeah, the kid did something stupid, it still doesn’t mean he deserved to be shot 10 fucking times.

And yeah, Amadou Diallo didn’t realize what the fucking police were saying. He had recently imigrated to New York. Don’t you think it’s possible that he might not have been 100% sure what to do? The motherfucker had no weapon, and was shot at 41 fucking times.

Cops, never had one good experience with them. So fuck them! And fuck the racists!

And I really have to get out of this, so I have to go. I’m just going to get upset all over again.

8

Agreed.

9

No, he didn’t “deserve” to be shot. He was a kid, doing something stupid. But that’s not the same thing as saying the cop was at fault.

Look, if I speak of someone who was killed in a traffic accident, I may say, “He didn’t deserve to die.” That’s certainly true - but it doesn’t mean that his death was anything other than an accident. A tragic accident, to be sure, but an accident nonetheless.

So, too, here. The child made some bad choices, but he was a child. He didn’t deserve to die.

But the cop didn’t do anything wrong. His car was rammed by another car. He could have seriously injured or killed. The person driving the car was still in possesion of the car, and able to ram the police car - or another car - again. In defense of his own life safety, the officer used deadly force to stop the car’s driver. Tragically, that driver was a confused child. But the cop didn’t act wrongly. And the kid didn’t deserve to die.

10

Indygrrl , don’t feel bad from what others say. We each handle these things in our own way. I cry a lot too, over stories like this, stories about animal cruelty especially, but more often lately our government. It’s frustrating because you are just one person and you feel helpless because you want things to change.

I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with those who are okay with the cops actions. You can stop someone without killing them. The child in the car, they could have shot out the tires and debilitated the vehicle. The kid reaching for his wallet, if they truly felt he was armed, they should have shot him in the leg to make him drop. That still would have been unforgiveable, but he would be alive today.

As someone who grew up in an inner-city, I know first-hand how careless people are of the poor parts of cities. It’s because of this I get very emotional about racism, bigotry, and the need for affirmative action. These kids grow up without a chance, and because of where they live or the fashions they follow to fit in with their peers, they are discriminated against. It’s a vicous circle and your friends are doing the right thing about raising their child. Please give them lots of hugs from this stranger on this message board, there are some of us out there who may not understand personally how dead-end their lives must feel, but who want to help and make sure that there are always the same opportunities as us “white folks”. It’s a very sad situation and this country is FAR from being tolerant, even in the cities.

We don’t have to take someone’s life to stop a crime, really. Shame on anyone for thinking otherwise. Go move to those inner-cities, then post.

11

[QUOTE=PinkMarabouI’m sorry, but I have to disagree with those who are okay with the cops actions. You can stop someone without killing them. The child in the car, they could have shot out the tires and debilitated the vehicle. The kid reaching for his wallet, if they truly felt he was armed, they should have shot him in the leg to make him drop. That still would have been unforgiveable, but he would be alive today.[/QUOTE]

Would it surprise you to learn that NOT ONE POLICE AGENCY OR MILITARY TRAINING PROGRAM, anywhere, teaches “aiming for the leg” as an acceptable technique?

Why do you suppose that is?

12

True, of course, but methods of disabling vehicles (spike strips) and the use of non-lethal weapons (pepper spray, tasers, etc.) are taught.

Don’t get me wrong–from what I heard, it doesn’t sound like the cops did anything wrong. But the use of non-lethal force could have been attempted, if not by the exact methods PinkMarabou suggested.

13

Because legs are hard to hit and if you hit an artery in the leg, the person dies anyway.

The view of this kid certainly would have been different if he had run some innocent bystander over.

14

Well, I didn’t know that and from Blackclaw’s explaination that makes sense. No need to get hostile.

Do you think it’s right that they killed these two kids when they obviously have other methods of getting people to stop whatever destructive behavior they’re displaying? Killing them was wrong, IMO and it’s poor training and/or cognitive skills on part of the police in both cases.

15

I’ll admit to not having read the whole story, but it sounds like bricker is the voice of reason on this one. It’s nice to assume that less-lethal (note the difference vs. non-lethal) options are always available, but they’re not. The child died, it’s a tragic accident, and that, from the surface, is all it appears to be.

Further, I doubt seriously, however it IS a dreaded assumption, that PinkMarabou knows anything at all about armed confrontation. pink dear, they don’t shoot an armed person in the leg because of several reasons;

a) You can still fire a gun with a hole in your leg.
b) You can still fire a gun with a hole in your leg.
c) You can still fire a gun with a hole in your leg.
Indygrrl Sorry about your bad day, it’s a frustrating place sometimes, this country, you just have to fix what you can, and hope for what you can’t, to keep from going crazy.

Re: Diallo. The cops, all of them, over reacted. I’ve looked at a lot of information (not just the stuff available to the public) about this case back when it happened, and the cops REALLY messed things up, bad. IMO, they should all be fired, and some in fact, jailed.

16

Unfortunately, I think this is a vicious circle. The people don’t trust the police. Thus, the police never get help in investigations, so they don’t bother trying. The people see little effort and don’t trust the police to help. Or, people are scared of the police, they flee and are belligerant etc… The police get this treatment all the time, and think these people are criminals, and investigate them. People see their friends being hassled, and get scared of the police.

Everyone winds up on edge in these situations, and the cops have guns. Think the cops who shot that kid were just taking a sunday drive? It was 4am, unknown driver is running signs and not stopping. Driving on the sidewalk, the passenger bolts and the car is rammed into the cruiser. What happens next? They don’t know, they feel like they’re being attacked and fight back. Bad decision? Perhaps, but people WILL make bad decisions.

Much better to avoid getting into situations where a bad decision gets you killed. Somebody points a gun at you, you don’t move fast, anywhere. A cop is behind you with the lights going, stop. Don’t run, don’t ram the cruiser with your car, don’t reach behind your back for your wallet.

Unfortunately, every single one of these unusual occurances gets played up to the max so minorities are flooded with images of presumed bigotry aimed at them. Hard to be objective when you see this all the time.

17

Cops suck, and that’s all there is to it. I view the idea of them existing for our “protection” to be something of a sick joke. I have absolutely zero confidence that the police will ever do jack shit to benefit me. The best I can hope for is to successfully stay out of their sight so they’ll leave me and mine alone.

Government police forces should be abolished, but failing that, they should be prohibited from carrying firearms, but failing that, any sort of official immunity for their actions should be removed. If a cop shoots and kills an unarmed man, I damn well want that cop to be expelled from the police force and brought up on the charge of murder, at a minimum.

18

Lots of luck finding people to man your police force…

19

So if you got shot in the leg, it wouldn’t stun you or drop you to your knees long enought for the police to detain you? Wow, you must be pretty strong, got steel legs there?

Since when do tasers not work? The bean-bag bullet things? There’s no excuse for filling that kid with lead the way they did.

20

I wasn’t hostile - or, at least, I didn’t intend to sound hostile. If I did, I apologize.

However, there is an aspect of your reaction that’s a bit annoying. You announce, confidently, that the police acted wrongly - they should have shot at a leg, you say. Then when you learn that this is not an option, for good reason, your response is simply, “Well, I didn’t know that.”

It seem to me that if you don’t know a great deal about shooting, about police doctrine and training, and the reason for police guidelines, it’s inappropriate to charge police wrongdoing. A post that says, “I don’t understand why the police had to shoot,” is very different than, “I have to disagree with those who are okay with the cops actions. You can stop someone without killing them.” In one case, you are asking for information ona sucject you don’t know. In the other case, you are definitively proclaiming a conclusion based on incomplete information.

It’s unfortunate, but yes, I think the police acted correctly in both cases. There are methods of stopping a car, such as spike strips, but they are not effective when the car is yards away from you, ramming you. Even shooting out the tires is ineffective - a driver intent on ramming you at close range is not going to stop because he fears damage to his rims. Shooting out tires stops a car from speeding away – it doesn’t prevent a car from being used as a deadly battering ram.

In the case of Amadou Diallo - who was not a kid - the police could not tell what he had in his hand, and thought it was a gun. It’s unreasonable to expect them to expose themselves to gunfire first. Of course, as we now know, Mr. Diallo did not have a gun. But the question is not what he ultimately had – the question is what was reasonable for the police to believe.