I am not sure what you mean here. Is it that the people of Lebanon wanted a war with Israel, and that’s why they voted for Hizbollah? Or that the government of Lebanon wanted a war with Israel, and that is why they assisted Hizbollah in obtaining weapons?
Or are you saying that Hizbollah should have asked the people of Israel if they wanted a war before they invaded Israel?
If it is the last, I would agree.
And no forcing the people of Lebanon to stay in a place so that Hizbollah can use them for propaganda purposes when they get killed. And no firing rockets at Israeli civilians, either.
Sorry, but by definition a dual-purpose road can be used to move arms. And if Hizbollah uses them to move arms, then they become a legitimate military target.
And the more Hizbollah and the other terrorists hide behind the people of Lebanon, the more the line between strategic target and civilian becomes blurred.
I asked this before, but I don’t seem to remember a response. Hizbollah is trying as hard as they can to make sure that as many Lebanese civilians get killed as possible. Israel is not deliberately targetting civilians; Hizbollah is.
Hizbollah, in other words, is hiding behind the people of Lebanon. They would rather the innocent die than die themselves, because they value good propaganda more than the lives of the Lebanese. Does this bother you?
When I posted the Ritter comments ,I knew they would be totally rejected. There is no otjher side to you. Are cluster bombs designed to distinguish affiliation. Saying over and over that Israel is not targeting Lebonese is silly. Words not deeds. 5 weeks of bombing. Lots of innocent Lebonese are being damaged. Homes houses ,infrastructure. It wont go away with a cease fire. In my opinion there a lot of potentiall hatreds being formed. When it ends and people finally come out and survey the wreckage, they might not say oh well they didnt mean to harm me. \ ps note i said i<n my opinion, it is now your turn to give me the facts.
Sorry Shodan I dont understand. Hezbollah is wanting lebaoes killed. Israel is killing them. It is Heabollah fault.
The people of Lebonon did not vote for Hezbollah. A small amount of people in local areas did. My understanding is that they have a small presence and are mostly tolerated.
I picture Hezbollah like a small political party. Legitimate targets, assuming such things exist, would be the Hall thet hang in .Their centers . But I see them indistinguishable from the other people.I think you attach too much power to them.
Shodan when I see some arguements offerered ,I think what if. Then stretch to logical absurdity. I know we will never vote on wars. It might end them. There is way toouch money in them.
it is unlikely that the other 75% voted for Hezbollah
Last night I heard confirmation of something I have suspected for some time, Israel is dropping leaflets in North Lebanon pointing out that Hezbollah are entirely responsible for any disruptions.
In some ways it is a bit of a nuisance that the UN has got its act together, if Israel does not appear to go in for the ‘ceasefire’ then they’ll look bad. And unlike Hezbollah they care a lot about appearances.
It looks as if they have the retreat covered, if Hezbollah were sensible they would wait for UN troops to arrive, that or try to sneak over the Syrian border.
Israel’s best bet would be to get hold of a few Katyushas and lob them at Israel, at about 11am on Monday - but maybe Hezbollah will do that for them.
It looks to me as if Israel has done rather a neat job, there are 800,000 refugees being a litter problem in N. Lebanon, so attrition is around 1%, provided Hezbollah are not allowed to regroup in N Lebanon, they will have achieved what they wanted without looking too bad - even if Hezbollah go along with the ‘ceasefire’.
One interesting point, I should imagine that communications are a bit tricky in S. Lebanon, mobile phones are great for homing devices, and transmitters will have been an early target. Tonight Israel will probably have to drop leaflets in Arabic explaining the ceasefire and that there is no way any male between 14 and 60 is going to get into N Lebanon.
I think I would put a map on the back, describing the route to Damascus.
The comical thing is that the Lebanese ‘government’ has agreed to the ‘ceasefire’, yet the Lebanese ‘government’ certainly does not represent Hezbollah
Well, yes, pretty much. Hizbollah is eager to use Lebanese civilian deaths as propaganda.
Israel is not trying to kill civilians, for the most part. Hizbollah is trying to force them to do so, by hiding among them and using them as shields. Do you believe this is a bad thing? Do you blame them for it, therefore?
And Israel, in its turn, did not vote for them at all. Yet Hizbollah attacked them.
It has to do with your point that only those that want to be in a war, should be in a war. Israel did not want to be in a war, therefore they did things like withdraw from Gaza and Lebanon, negotiate land for peace, and so forth. Yet Hizbollah attacked them. And Hizbollah wants to force war even on those Lebanese who did not vote for Hizbollah.
The power I am attaching to them is the power to blur or remove the distinction between legitimate targets and civilian ones. Hizbollah is doing everything in its power to get Lebanese civilians killed, even to the point of preventing them from evacuating areas that the IDF has warned that they are going to attack.
So the IDF, with their warnings, does what it can to keep its target legitimate. Hizbollah, by hiding among civilians, firing off rockets from civilian areas, preventing civilians from evacuating, etc., does what it can to raise the casualty rates among civilians as high as possible. For PR.
One side is doing what it can to reduce civilian casualties (as much as can be expected in such a war). The other is trying to maximize them. Which side do you condemn the most?
Did you say South Lebanon. Now you have to define north and south. When it ends Hezbollah will likely start to help the people recover from the bombing. They will rebuild and offer food and jobs. The chastised Lebonese will of course refuse ,They will say you forced Israel to bomb us even though they did not want to. It is all your fault.
They will then turn on Hezbollah and kill them all. They will then ,having seen the light, back any and all proposal offered by the peaceful Israelies. Yes this is a great victory.
As they rebuild schools and roads they will ask Israel if they are connected to other countries would they be allowed. Should rivers be damned because munitions can be shipped on them. perhaps a wall around the country would suffice. And Israelies can set up check points to make sure.
it is now time for me to ask the question which has perplexed me for several days. How the hell do you define a “moderate Arab”. Is he like a “moderate dutchman” ? Or a “moderate American”. What constitutes a “moderate” ethnicity ?
it is now time for me to ask the question which has perplexed me for several days. How the hell do you define a “moderate Arab”. Is he like a “moderate dutchman” ? Or a “moderate American”. What constitutes a “moderate” ethnicity ?
@Gonzomax
It looks as if you have been tippling, no criticism, alcohol is useful for shuffling the mental pack of cards.
Hezbollah is a minority in Lebanon, they live in specific areas and they get their money from peculiar sources - well probably just one source - and Iran is very peculiar.
It looks as if the Hezbollah non-combatents are streaming back, which rather surprizes me as they don’t have much to go back to. I guess they are just ‘following orders’.
The Israelis are probably very annoyed (one of my friends rang me last night, his views are probably less extreme than most), they feel humiliated because their hands were tied, but I have a nasty feeling that just one Katyusha will make them forget about ‘World opinion’.
I would not be at all surprized if Israel announced a pattern of retalliation, carpet bomb 1km squared around any sign of aggressive activity.
What now worries Israel is that they have been made to look vulnerable, but only because they have (reluctantly) stuck to standards of decency.
Not that Gozu was a raving lunitic or anything, but if s/he represents the views and viewpoint of the ‘moderate Arab’ faction all I can say is…gods help you guys Alessan.
But…at least gonzomax is probably not one of those supposed ‘moderate Arab’ voices of reason. Then you would REALLY be up shit creek without means of propulsion…
What do you suppose this proves? Are all Spanish in lock-step over everything your government does Red? If they disagree with your government, does this make them right and everyone else wrong? Could it be that perhaps you feel he’s in the right because, well, you agree with him?