A Modest Proposal for Empirical (A)Theology

The can’t finger the exact time God entered my life. I was baptized at the age of eight, I can’t remember why, or even if I really belived, I think I thought it was just something everyone did.

Two years later, my parents split up, and church was no longer a weekly thing. My moved up to live in her old home town, and I went on with my life. As I grew up I did things normal teenagers do. Somewhere, I started to stray from the path, and my friends at the time deserted me. I wasn’t horrible, or at least I didn’t think I was, I just wasn’t righteous.

A girlfriend invited me to go to a Young Life meeting, and there I met new friends, one lifelong one, and got reaquainted with God. At 18, I made the decision to follow Christ, and was baptized again, because this time I meant it. :slight_smile: I remember being very in tune with the Spirit then.

Then I left to college. I was in ROTC and in four years, I was pretty sure I could handle the big bad world, just me and God. I didn’t think I needed a church. Needless to say I backslid. Fastforward eight years, a wife and two kids later. I was not right with God anymore. It was time for one of those 2x4’s that Mike told us about.

My particular addiction was pornography, and the internet made it easy for me to lose myself, and my wife and family. Thankfully, I was confronted with my sins, and my wife and I reconciled, and started going to church. I redidicated my life (again) and this time I understand, I need to grow a lot before I think I can handle it without a body of belivers beside me. My wife also accpeted Christ and we were both baptised in 1998. (That just goes to show you, that the water don’t mean nothing, its the spirit baby!)

Since that time, I given much thought, study, meditation and prayer to the tough questions. My faith has strengthed because of it. There is no question that God cannot answer. No prayer that he doesn’t fulfill. It is just sometimes the answer and the fulfillment isn’t what we expect or exactly what we ask for.

I can point to many ‘miracles’ over the past two and a half years. (My whole life really, from the time I was eight, the more I think about it.) They may be coincidence, but I can only say that all the troubles and trials that were overcome, were prayed over, and given up to the will of God.

Peace.


† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13

Thank you all for sharing. Part of the idea for this thread, though, was not just “I’m going to witness to my conversion experience” but to have the skeptics examine the stories, and in their asking questions and our responding, get some handle on just what is going on in all of this. Supposing there to be a God for purposes of this sentence (as I believe firmly but as other good people who post here do not), why might He have done the things He did with us, brought Phil to Him and let him choose to slip away, never have given Gaudere the proof He gave us? Those are fair questions to ask. Analysis and probing questions are requested.

Okay, now my turn:

Age about 15: sitting in a very traditionalist Methodist church, during service. We live next door to the church. Aunt is one of the pillars of the church, parents and grandparents are non-attending members. I have strong doubts about whether any of what is going on here has anything to do with the life I live outside, and whether there is in fact such a God as they’re presupposing down front. So I ask him, “if You’re there, let me know it.” And he does. No voice in my head, no particular epiphanies of any sort. Just a certainty that He is in fact real, which had not been there before, but was now a part of my stock of knowledge. And the service then moved to a hymn: “Nearer, My God, to Thee” which had previously been just “that song they played while the Titanic sunk” – an urban legend, by the way – but was invested with real meaning to me at that point. I’ve never been uncertain of His existence since.

However, I finished high school, went to college, our family terminated any interest in that church (a long and disgusting story having to do with the United Methodist Church failing to keep any tabs on their ministers’ behavior – Jodi, if you’re interested, let me know and I’ll e-mail you the gory details), and I went on with my life with no strong attachment to anything, including God.

I re-encountered the girl I’d been close to throughout high school and junior college at age 26, and we married and moved to Syracuse NY, and at her behest, went church-shopping, eventually settling on an Episcopal church there that met both our tastes in worship. Later we moved back to Watertown, joined the largest of the 3 Episcopal churches in town, and became reasonably active. All this time, however, it was simply an intellectual adherence to a set of propositions, plus the memory of that one event years before.

We enrolled in an extension course in theology, taught by the assistant priest using materials from and with the program accredited by the University of the South theology school. A major portion of this was a scholarly examination of the Bible. And in the process, we came to the letters to the Corinthians. Discussion on the whole “gifts of the spirit” stuff ensued.

One course member, who was part of the “charismatic renewal movement” (anathema to that staid country-club Episcopalian parish!), invited the class to hold the next session at his home, so he could give some background on what the whole “renewal movement” entailed. Accordingly, we went there, and he played a Pat Boone singing hymns record as part of the background material. I was singing along under my breath, and when Pat left English, so did I. This shocked the sh*t out of me, needless to say. Over the course of the next few days, I found that there was a “door” there (this is metaphorical of a mental/spiritual sensation) that I had never noticed before, and that there was a clear connection between me and Something beyond it, who gave clear evidence of being (1) awe-inspiring, (2) warm and caring, (3) the Christian deity I’d had preached to me, studied about, but never really met (except for the casual acquaintance noted above).

Now, let me make very clear that (1) I did not at that point feel a “lack in my life” or a “need to believe” and (2) had I had a choice, a Pentecostal experience was the *last thing I would have sought out (I associated them with obnoxious people like what we used to see Adam as being).

What followed from this experience was a hunger for more information on what was going on, including reading the Bible with a sense of “oh, so that’s what that meant!” (I think I’m qualified to carry on both sides of the argument on 'Gator’s comment about the Holy Spirit giving understanding of the Scriptures and those who took that as insulting – It’s more like reading a commentary on Zen before and after having had a satori, if you’ll allow a spiritual but non-Christian metaphor – it makes sense that it didn’t before.)

Further, my somewhat repressed and passivist personality got changed around. From being excessively intellectual, I started developing emotional and empathic traits, from being afraid of what people would think (still a small problem) I started standing for what (I believed) was right, felt a sense of a call to find out the Truth, a purposiveness to my life that hadn’t been present before. And a willingness to “step out in faith” that has brought me from a depressive and depressed state to the environment I’m in and the way I feel today, for which my theme song has been Johnny Nash’s old “I can see clearly now.”

For one thing, everybody’s so different. Gaudere looks at the “Before Abraham was, I am” passage as just a cool way to say something. David looks at it as bad grammar. But for me, it is exactly the right thing to convince me.

And for another thing, we limit, if we’re not careful, the infinite by the temporal. You never know what’s around the corner. God might speak to Gaudere in her own special way next week. Phil might or might not have had a personal relationship with God as opposed to the kind of intellectual acknowledgement you used to have. The latter is much easier to lose than the former.

I’ll be honest with you. When I first started the Atheist Religion thread way back, one thing that I worried about was having my faith shaken by what I feared would be rational and compelling arguments by the atheists, but none were forthcoming. The reasons they give for not believing are just as subjective as the reasons we give for our faith: they have established an arbitrary criteria of evidence to which they hold God. But so have we.

Umm, point taken. But my comment here is, any faith I may have which can be shaken by analysis of my life story cannot be much of a faith in the first place. I believe that the God Who embodies Truth and Love is not going to be very much upset by somebody seeking the Truth. And that is one thing that can be said of David, Gaudere, and I collectively…that we are interested in knowing the Truth, and will not settle for less. And you know what J.C. said about that… :cool:


“Life is like a new suit of clothes. If it doesn’t fit, make alterations.”
–the old woman in Silverado

Oh. Well, amen to that.

“All truth is God’s truth.” - Arthur Holmes

And a hearty amen to that.

Me too.

If I may be permitted a short hijack of a thread I started, my wife is here with me today. (I post from work, and stopped in today to review the board; she normally does not join me at work, for obvious reasons.)

I raised the question of why Gaudere might not have been vouchsafed the sort of experience we Christians have been claiming, when she asked and was (and I believe her!) open to an answer. Barb’s response was one that floored me: she did get an answer, just not what any of us was looking for. She began by hypothecating that Gaudere was a good listener, with which I think all of us have to agree. I concurred and said she was also an excellent analytical thinker. She suggested that Gaudere had actually received a couple of the spiritual gifts listed in early Isaiah (ch. 9? somebody pinpoint this) and in I Corinthians 12-14. I saw immediately that discernment is one of her major gifts. Gaudere is more competent than anyone else I know to see the truth of a situation, wade through and past the B.S. to the key point, isolate and analyze it. Barb’s suggestion is that Gaudere look over the appropriate passages and give her reactions to them. [/hijack]


“Life is like a new suit of clothes. If it doesn’t fit, make alterations.”
–the old woman in Silverado

Polycarp, this goes along with something I heard a while back about answered prayers. God always answers prayers, it’s just that we may not be looking for or expecting the answer he gives and many times its either “no” or “wait”. Here’s a short little saying that was brought to me:

If the question isn’t right, He says “NO”.
If the timing isn’t right, He says “SLOW”.
If the person isn’t right [with Him], He says “GROW”.
And if all three are right, He says “GO”.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

I like it, Mike. Unfortunately, it isn’t necessarily going to win friends and influence skeptics. :slight_smile:

Why not? It is an Ockhmanish verse?

True :slight_smile: (Sometimes I forget which board I’m posting too :wink: )


“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

Lib, it reminds me much of the Emperor’s New Clothes. “Oh, you can only see them if you have perfect taste (or whatever the heck the criteria was, I forget).” Or “You can make water run uphill if you pray hard enough. How hard is hard enough? Why, hard enough to make water run uphill, of course!” Y’all are free to believe I’m going to get an epiphany tommorow; or that God did talk to me, just not the way He did to you; or the “time just isn’t right”. I could just as easily say that someday you will realize that you never really met God at all, or that the being you thought was Jesus was really Kali. I generally avoid doing so, since it is mildly insulting, although I do understand why you would believe as you do about me.

::bolting back to lurk mode::

Yeah. And I am trying to do several things, Gaudere, that are incompossible: (1) respect your worldview (not just “tolerate” it ;)) (2) given my own worldview, understand where your experiences or lack thereof fit into what I think is going on, (3) (and I’ve never made any bones about this) do what I can to present the God I believe in as palatable to intelligent skeptics who don’t care to have the truth handed to them in patent leather binding, accept no substitutes, and anything that disagrees with the Proper Interpretation Thereof to be thrown out, baby, bathwater, and all. If I’ve offended you in any way in trying to juggle all them eggs, I offer my sincere apologies.

That said, I wish you wouldn’t lurk on this thread. As defined, it’s presenting people’s conversion stories for analysis. An empathic but skeptical analyst is called for. And I think Lib, RT, and 'Gator at least would concur that you fill that bill better than almost anybody else.

Err…“I wish you wouldn’t just lurk on this thread” was what I meant … implying “post actively too” God, what a potential for misinterpretation!! :frowning:

I believe that you all felt what you did. I also believe the experiences are more easily explained by mundane means. However, it is somewhat arrogant to state that my judgment must needs be better than yours on a subject based in subjective interpretation, so I generally do not do so, though of course I think I am right and you think you are right.

Remember by description of the “weirdness” and paralysis and the vision of a gorgon that I had? Does that prove gorgons exist? I cannot accept that. Now, if I had had a vision of Jesus, would you not be clamoring for me to accept that as Truth? I refuse to hold God to a lower standard than I do anything else without objective evidence.

I have had moments of realization, when things click into place; I credit my abrupt understanding of the underlying guts of OOD programming or Kantian moral theory to the fact that I had spent quite a while trying to beat them into my head, and finally figured it out. I have had moments of extreme joy (there’s a reason for my SN, ya know), but I credit it more the the presence of friends and family and good beer than any deity. We see the same pile of bolts; you think there is an artist, I think there is not. It does not bother me that we can draw different conclusions; I think that is more of an issue for theists, who think God always answers those who seek him. My universe does not feel any need to make itself easliy understandable, so I need not fret myself that we can see things differently.

I know what you meant about the “lurk” thing, Poly; it may be hard to determine the “real” meaning when all you have are words on the screen, but it is not always impossible. :slight_smile:

Mmm…this is referring to the fact that I did not feel what you did, so I do not really have the authority to insist what you felt must be subject to what I think happened. Given that all the debates here are based on subjective interpretation, I don’t mean to say I can never have an opinion on anything, or that I can’t ever have a better opinion! (I’d put in a laughy-face here, but I hate the new one)

If Kali is God, then it makes no difference.

Personally, I don’t feel the need to believe anything about you (other than that you’re not andros or Clark K :rolleyes :); it’s a pleasure to know you as you are.

Besides, friends and family and good beer seem to me to be excellent things to derive great joy from. :slight_smile:

Polycarp, I would be interested in a post from you concerning The Divine Weasel, and this seems to some degree to be the appropriate thread. How do you describe the Divine Weasel? What characteristics does it have that are often associated with definitions of the Christian God? Why do you think those characteristics are wrong to associate with the God you believe in?