This seems true for all types of totalitarian regimes. Communism arose because of frustration by the peasants about the monarchs, the oligarchs and the bourgeoisie. Predictably, before they could establish their own laws and rules, there always has to be a revolution that includes scapegoating, killing and a burning down of all things. Invariably to their own detriment. i.e. Politics thru chaos: Plus ça change…
It isn’t easy is it? However considering all Trump voters to be idiots and writing them all off *is *easy and so, so tempting. You however, are giving it thought and introspection, that’s a huge step up from the typical level of debate on this subject and you, me and others who do take that path (there are quite a few) tend to get drowned out.
I suspect that is because what we are saying just doesn’t fit into a polarised narrative (and these days the possibility of reasoned, rational debate between strongly opposed views seems almost heretical) which is a source of constant bafflement to me.
That might be from this article:
“He’s not hurting the people he needs to be”: a Trump voter says the quiet part out loud
A Trump voter hurt by the shutdown reveals the real reason the president attracts hardcore supporters.
[italics in original]
This is true for many Trump supporters I know. They probably would happily let Trump shit in their mouth if it triggers a “libturd”. I guess you could call what they’re swallowing a “Trumpturd”.
Careful patting yourselves on the back. You’ll put your shoulders out.
I’ll wager that most people who are ‘writing Trump supporters off’ have struggled for years to understand what drives Trump supporters to think and behave in ways that are frankly inexplicable by any rational thought. Plenty of right correct minded thinkers have come along and explained that Trump’s appeal is an emotional reaction, not one that can be arrived at through critical thought and fact based conclusions. This appears to be the case. So when people who oppose Trump say that Trump supporters are a cult or that they are just too stupid to be reasoned with, on some level they/we are not wrong. But it’s not accurate to say that people arrive at this conclusion without significant attempt to understand or even empathize with them.
NoveltyBubble, right on. As soon as we say “all x’s are y,” we are committing the same harmful error that we criticize Trump voters for doing.
QuickSilver — ha! For me, it’s mainly by chance that I ended up living outside one of the bubbles; I might struggle with this less if I lived in Berkeley or Bismarck. I claim no special gifts (nor does NoveltyBubble, I’m sure).
QuickSilver — I agree with you that many progressive-bubble residents also grapple with these questions; but they may, overall, feel even less pressure than purple residents to take it to the next step, of directly engaging with hopefully persuadable neighbors (or acquaintances) who voted for Trump. (A step which I haven’t really taken yet myself).
The grand strategy was, and is, watching Trump commit crimes, damage long-standing political alliances, do things that damage the economy and deliver on none of his promises, while simultaneously making himself and the country he represents into an unpredictable laughingstock. The Democrats ran the only candidate on Earth that could have lost to him. I sincerely believe that remains the case. And if it’s not, if the people of the United States are not only willing but anxious to return this man to office, we deserve exactly what we get.
Hey! Trump says he’s kept more campaign promises than he even made.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”
–HL Mencken, Baltimore Evening Sun on 26 July 1920
People forget that 20 or 30 years ago, someone like Trump would have been totally unelectable. It’s not as though someone like Trump is inevitable, which is why I disagree with the notion that Hunter Thompson “predicted” Trump. He probably did explain why young white men from dysfunctional families join biker gangs, but any sociologist or psychologist could have explained why people from unstable communities join gangs and lash out at broader society around them. People are social creatures, and if they don’t find ‘family’ and acceptance in their community, then they either become angry loners, or they find it somewhere else and people enjoy feeling social bonds with others regardless of who rolls out the welcome mat. We evolved as social creatures - that’s one of the reasons our species survived.
Trumpism isn’t natural. It’s not natural or inevitable that white people vote for someone like Trump. People vote for Trump for reasons that are as varied as people themselves. Some people vote for Trump purely because they’re richer than God and want to save every penny that they make - naked self interest.
But as far as why people who don’t fall into that category “accept” Trump, consider the examples of history. A lot of Americans my age grew up in households that were, in many ways, a lot more optimistic about the future than we are today. Sure, there was the constant threat of thermonuclear war, but otherwise there was real progress, and specifically, economic progress. People had 9-to-5 jobs. One person could bring home an income that would support a family if they had skills and education. Although I don’t have data to show it, I’m convinced that this optimism among the dominant culture, White Judeo-Christians, also probably what permitted a gradual change in values to allow for more social inclusion and tolerance. When people are feeling generally secure about themselves and their well-being, they are generally more willing to share space and resources with others.
What’s happened since just after the end of the Civil Rights era is that White Americans have experienced an almost uninterrupted state of social and economic decline. Real wages have dropped. The social safety net has shrunk. We’ve experienced an S&L crisis and the mother of all recessions which squandered trillions of dollars in wealth for what was left of the middle class at that time. Healthcare is unaffordable. College is unaffordable. Of course this is true for people of all stripes, but it’s the dominant ethnic group that is feeling insecure and wants answers
And when the vulnerable middle and underclasses of the dominant ethnic group wants answers, the oligarchs give them scapegoats:
“Foreigners are taking jobs that belong to Americans.”
“Women are taking jobs that men used to have.”
“Minorities are just given jobs that whites have to earn.”
“Everyone who’s poorer than you can sit at home and take handouts while you have to bust your white ass.”
I could go on, but you get the picture.
I should also point out that just because some of these people have good incomes doesn’t mean they feel any more secure. Even for people who are self-employed and earning six figures, they’re living in a world that is fast-changing and increasingly complex. Keeping up in the business world can be a disorienting experience, whether it’s a 60 year-old small business shop owner struggling to keep up with technological trends or a recent graduate facing brutal competition for his first IT job. All of this is against the backdrop of white Americans, the dominant cultural group, being used to at the top of the social and political hierarchy.
Whites have been voting in oligarchs and plutocrats for the better part of 4 decades now, and without realizing it, they’re just making their own lives more and more miserable. The “other” is such a powerful weapon for the socioeconomic elite because differences are easily visible. People instinctively, subconsciously, consciously select companionship and group membership based on similarities and differences. It’s too easy for whites to believe that someone who looks different is raiding their food supply, which is why white politicians since time immemorial have used tropes to communicate with their ‘bases.’
But Trump is different.
He is a dipshit when it comes to doing his job, but in these times, with much of the white middle class hanging on for dear life, wondering if they’re going to have enough money to pay rent, let alone retire, Trump communicates in ways that are easy for fearful white Americans to understand. He does not mince words. He doesn’t struggle to get his utterances out. He doesn’t say racist things one day and apologize the next. White Americans aren’t just scared; they’re frustrated and pissed off, and Trump gets it in ways that others do not. From his perspective, the worst thing he can be in their eyes is apologetic and self-censored, because that’s showing signs of weakness.
As has been pointed out before, when whites see him using the language of rage, they relate to it. When they see him at rallies saying the things that others in the past have thought be dared not say, they don’t just relate to Trump, they view him as a kind of tribal leader, an American version of William Wallace in a suit and red tie. They don’t just accept Trump; they rally behind him.
Don’t expect this to change soon. It changes when people get tired of having their throats stepped on by billionaires and realize that someone like Trump isn’t there to make their lives better; he’s there to enrich himself at their expense, as are the people who helped put Trump in power in the first place. This only really changes when there are enough white Americans (Americans of all backgrounds really) who change their value system to be more tolerant, inclusive, and equitable. Until then, it won’t change; our situation will probably deteriorate.
That’s why Asahi is Asahi, because I don’t see the kinds of fundamental changes in our collective value system that we need in order to prevent the Donald Trumps of the world from taking the reins of power - I would love to be proven wrong, but I just don’t see it. In fact what I see is quite disturbing. I see Trumpists digging in for a long kind of trench warfare, not unlike what Southern Democrats did during Reconstruction.
I’ve seen a fair share of it here in a genuine effort to understand the other side. Much to my own frustration, it has never gone as well as I’d have liked. Living in a blue state, the opportunity of IRL conversations, which I suspect would be far less contentious than those by anonymous means, are few and far between.
You just rejected the guy’s hypothesis and then restated it in your own words.
I think one reason is that people like the easy, quick answers. They have no time for nuance or subtlety. Any time a problem or issue arises there’s always cries of “Why don’t they just…” as if the answers hadn’t been thoroughly researched or contemplated by people who actually have the means and the know-how to come up with a solution.
Too many people are coming in from Mexico? Build a wall.
Losing coal industry jobs? Make more coal industry jobs.
Goods from China are too cheap? Tariff China.
People are over worked and under paid? Impossible, look at the Dow, economy is fine.
People are dying with and without health insurance? You have health insurance. What do you care?
Climate change is killing our planet? Pretend it’s not real.
Those are the easy (and incorrect) answers. Much easier to do an “elevator pitch” with those answers than the 5-minute discourse explaining the subtlety of the steps that need to be taken to correct those issues. Trump can blurt out his answer to any problem faster than any intelligent person can. He wins the race to the finish line.
I see this a lot in my work with my local city government. We can produce an informative flyer with information as to why we need this or that, and make it as succinct as possible, but the “NO NEW TAXES” people always beat us to the punch. If we give all the info as to what will happen if we can’t raise the needed funds? We’re threatening residents. And if we don’t give every little detail, and a measure fails, and services get cut? People say “you didn’t tell us!” It’s an uphill battle against the easy answer of “NO!”
This is how I see it with my dad, a Trump supporter. He’s very excited about these easy answers, and has no time for subtlety. And when they don’t work? It’s not Trump’s fault, it’s everyone who tried to stop him.
Does he really not have the time for subtlety? Is his and his fellow Trump supporters really more busy then those of us who oppose him? In what way are their lives so much busier or more complicated than ours that they don’t take the time to understand the actual issues in sufficient detail?
I suspect the answer isn’t a lack of time. I suspect the answer is, as you say, the desire for easy answers that don’t challenge their oversimplified view of the world. Because, as Hunter S. Thompson put it, they have been left behind by the changes they refused to embrace.
This may be the 100th thread we’ve had on the topic thus far, but…
[ul]
[li] Many Trump voters belong in some category that they believe faces mockery or marginalization (whites, Christians, men, etc.) and want to fight back against the side that is oppressing them (whether they actually ***are ***disadvantaged or oppressed or not is irrelevant; feelings are feelings.)[/li][li] Many dislike Trump, but fear liberalism even more (or fear a woman president’s feminism, or fear the Clintons, or whatever)[/li][li] Many were thirsting desperately for “change” (on Election Night 2016, some network - maybe CNN - noted that among voters who felt it was important for the nation to have “urgent change,” 81 percent of them went for Trump)[/li][li] There was the “Boaty McBoatface” effect at work. The fact that Trump ***was ***such an unsuitable and odd choice for president is *precisely what made some people vote for him - for the sake of the lulz. A 4chan mindset. The laughs.[/li][li] Many people loathe political correctness. PC is one of those terms that gets defined a dozen different ways by a dozen different people, but many saw it as “suppressing offensive truth.”[/li][li] Traditional Republican agenda - many conservatives loathed Trump, but figured he’d give them normal Republican stuff like tax cuts, conservative judges, etc. [/li][] Liberal smugness - ever heard of the saying, “Don’t mock the alligator until you’re across the stream?” Many liberals were crowing about how demographics were dooming the Republican Party. While that may be true in the future, 2016 was premature to crow like that. Maybe wait until 2030 first.[/ul]
While I was searching for the Thompson article I posted a link to above, I also came across this:
A New Book Describes Hunter S. Thompson’s Prescience
“Trump is present on every page, even though he’s never mentioned once,” the author says.
As others have pointed out, Trump’s a symptom of what’s been around for decades, not the cause.
I don’t think so. My take is that Susan McWilliams is trying to take something that Hunter Thompson wrote 50 years ago in a different context and suggesting that it explains what’s in front of us now. There are parallels between Hunter’s observations of the Hells Angels, it’s a different context.
Did elites really assume that Hell’s Angels were on the side of counterculture? Did “elites” even consider what went wrong with the Hell’s Angels to begin with? I think the author - not Thompson - is reaching here.
The author makes a lot of assumptions about intellectuals, not to mention she doesn’t even define who the “elites” and “intellectuals” are. It’s the same old “liberal elites don’t understand the white working class,” which is wrong - liberal elites understand white working class just fine. It’s the white working class that keeps voting for people who keep fucking them in the ass even harder.
That might be how they felt but it’s inaccurate to compare those times to now - I just don’t see the point using Thompson’s Angels as an example to explain what’s happening now. A more accurate parallel is what’s happening in other parts of Europe now, and what happened to Germany and France in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. Technological, economic, and political changes that, over time, transformed once confident, relatively tolerant ethnic majorities who embraced things like foreign trade and immigration into highly intolerant xenophobes who turned inward until they finally invited ruin.
Crips, Bloods, Surenos and Nortenos get tattoos for probably similar reasons. Their tattoos and their general behavior explains a lot about what happens when people feel marginalized, but it doesn’t explain how everyone else votes.
Yes, this.
Many people do want the “easy answers”. They want the simplistic “solutions” like the ones you would hear being blathered around by the dude down at the bar.
And these people don’t want subtlety or nuance or complex solutions. Mainly because they find these solutions or explanations difficult to understand. Most often, they’re not stupid. But they are poorly educated and/or lazy. And this forms a large proportion of Trump’s base; Poorly educated, lazy people who want the easy route and feel mad because things are getting more complex and difficult.
Trump is the dude at the bar shouting asinine but simple “solutions” to their problems.
If you think about it, Trumpism will always be around - it will never go away. But what’s different about Trumpism now isn’t really a secret that’s unlocked by re-reading Hunter Thompson, who probably on many levels related to the subjects of his character sketches, feeling left behind and not taken seriously by conventional pundits and experts.
We have Trump now because there are some very important guardrails that have been removed in the intervening years between the 1960s and now. We will never eradicate Hell’s Angels or their successors, whoever they might be. There will always be deplorables, and there will always be deplorable whisperers. The question is, how did the fringes become a mainstream movement?
In my estimation, that has occurred as a result of a decline in liberal values. I reject the idea that liberal elites as a group are talking over and past the white working class. There are individuals who suck at running political campaigns and who suck at messaging, the deplorables own voting tendencies and their own tastes in the consumption of information is what’s really causing Trumpism. A lot of Trump’s loudest and obnoxious deplorables are not working class types; many of them are doing fairly well economically but are nevertheless fearful of a changing world and what it means for them and the people they care about.
[quote=“Velocity, post:54, topic:847565”]
This may be the 100th thread we’ve had on the topic thus far, but…
[ul]
[li] Many Trump voters belong in some category that they believe faces mockery or marginalization (whites, Christians, men, etc.) and want to fight back against the side that is oppressing them (whether they actually ***are ***disadvantaged or oppressed or not is irrelevant; feelings are feelings.)[/li][li] Many dislike Trump, but fear liberalism even more (or fear a woman president’s feminism, or fear the Clintons, or whatever)[/li][li] Many were thirsting desperately for “change” (on Election Night 2016, some network - maybe CNN - noted that among voters who felt it was important for the nation to have “urgent change,” 81 percent of them went for Trump)[/li][li] There was the “Boaty McBoatface” effect at work. The fact that Trump ***was ***such an unsuitable and odd choice for president is *precisely *what made some people vote for him - for the sake of the lulz. A 4chan mindset. The laughs.[/li][li] Many people loathe political correctness. PC is one of those terms that gets defined a dozen different ways by a dozen different people, but many saw it as “suppressing offensive truth.”[/li][li] Traditional Republican agenda - many conservatives loathed Trump, but figured he’d give them normal Republican stuff like tax cuts, conservative judges, etc. [/li][li] Liberal smugness - ever heard of the saying, “Don’t mock the alligator until you’re across the stream?” Many liberals were crowing about how demographics were dooming the Republican Party. While that may be true in the future, 2016 was premature to crow like that. Maybe wait until 2030 first.[/ul][/li][/QUOTE]
Some people accept Trump because they support Trump and his agenda on its own - and I use this term loosely - merits. Some people think banning Muslims from entering the US and putting children in concentration camps are good things.
I guess you’ll have to define what you mean by “decline in liberal values”.
My thinking is that the rise in fringe (nationalism, bigotry, take-back-ism) is a backlash to the expansion and wider acceptance of liberal values.