I’ll second what CCL wrote and mention that P.E. isn’t even all that easy these days. They have research papers, worksheets, tests, and homework every week, every day during the first part of any unit. Maybe not in every school, but at least in my district, since we are teaching to the state’s curriculum. Let’s not forget that they see nearly double the number of students in a day as regular classroom teachers, too.
I’m also not sure where you got that teachers get two prep hours a day, sometimes three. The only way that could happen for me is if I taught two radically different subjects. If I taught calculus all day, I’d get one prep hour. If I taught half a day of calculus and half a day of physics, then I’d get two prep hours. Double the preparation required equals a need for double the amount of time in which to do so. Once I’ve prepped for my classes there’s still conferences, mini-workshops, IEPs, and such that eat up every minute of my prep time, plus a good hour of my time before and after school. Oh, I’m also advisor to two clubs and that’s voluntary like breathing is voluntary, so factor in time for that too.
Annualizing their pay doesn’t feel quite right. They get paid 39k a year, that part of the year school isn’t in session doesn’t change that fact. It doesn’t seem right to say that underpaying someone is justified because they could forgo sleep and get a third job and then not be so poor.
I still think the “salary” issue is semantics. I was merely objecting to the notion that any preparation a teacher is obliged to do when school is not in session is “unpaid.” It’s not. It may well be underpaid, but it’s still part of the job. It isn’t really the same as seasonal work, where you don’t know if you can pick up the same contract again. You don’t have to have cause to fire your landscaper.
Right. Exactly. The compensation needs to be high enough to justify all that bullshit: I mean, the pay for every job is based on the bullshit you have to put up with—that’s why the manager at a McDonalds gets paid more than a crew person. I’m willing to put up with all the things you listed in exchange for the X-dollars a year I make and the Y number of days I get off. If any of those variables changed, I’d reconsider whether or not hte pay nad time off together still equaled the bullshit and then make my decision. If they thought they could get someone who would put up with more bullshit for less pay and do as good a job, they’d fire me.
Guys, please quit justifying teacher paychecks based on how hard we work: we do work hard, but so do lots and lots of folks, many for a lot less than we make. We get paid what we get paid–and deserve what we get paid–because of supply and demand. Trying to prove that we earn it in some sort of objective sense is a loosing battle, because whose to say what a job is in inherently worth–it’s all about whether or not employees are avalible and what they are willing to accept.
My contract requires me to report for duty 187 days. In addition, I am required to attend 45 hours of professional development. I am not “obligated” by contract to do anything else. We have the option of choosing “19 pay” or “24 pay”. It may be part of the job, if we choose to make it part of the job. Any preparation I do outside of the 187 days of duty and 45 hours of professional development is most certainly unpaid. It would be the same if you were asked or felt obligated to work during your vacation without additional compensation.
For the record, I enjoy my vacation but I also participate in various job related activities during the summer. It is something that I enjoy doing.
I want to point out that it seems to me that JohnBckWld seems only to be attacking a specific situation in a district he is close to, and not all teachers (I hope this is the case). I agree with Manda Jo, teachers aren’t asking for more money, at least not the ones I teach with. We knew what we were getting into when we signed up for the job.
I think we all need to be intelligent enough to see that not all teachers get paid the same, have the same benifits, and so on. I work from 7:30 until 3:00, with only one prep period. That is fine with me, but don’t try and tell me that all teachers get two or three prep. periods. Cite a source if you have one.
Not everything in life is fair, we all know this. Should a stripper make more money than a social worker? I don’t think so. Salaries are out of balance in many professions, but that is not going to change. If teachers get summers off and days off to work on their education, then that’s just life. I know of many government officials with perks they don’t deserve. Is that going to change? No.
In the end I think teachers deserve what the market will give them. SciFiSam and Manda Jo have already made this point, and it is a very valid one. If you have a real problem with it, jusk ask yourself if you are receiving some perk from your job that the rest of us might not approve of.
** jacksen9**. it seems to me that as a field, we teachers need to decide if we are proffessionals or not: if we aren’t, then you are correct: you aren’t obligated to do anything that isn’t "on the clock."On the other hand, professionals are hired to do the job, and it’s understood that it’s up to the individual to determine exactly how long it takes to do that job, whatever it is. Lawyers work however many hours it take to handle thier case load, doctors do the same. As I see it, so do we. Districts want to treat us like day-laborers, and so make sure they always word things in terms of contracted time and such. I think that if we want our profession to stay a profession, we have to remember that we work the job. not the clock.
The flip side is that if we don’t pay teachers what the market would dictate to get enough good ones into the classrooms, then we’ll deserve the schools we’ll get.
Moejuck - the OP isn’t just about this particular situation. It starts off that way, then it generalises:
(Emphasis mine).
Also the title of the thread is general, not specific:
That sounds to me like someone who’s bitter that teachers get summers off. And he still hasn’t answered the objection that these classes aren’t available in the summer.
JohnBckWld, I have to see a cite for this. Every study I’ve ever seen does indicate that smaller class sizes are better for discipline and academic acheivment. You don’t even need studies to prove that - it’s common sense that if the teacher has more time to spend with each student, then they will learn more. I’d be interested to see any studies which say that large class sizes are good.
Mandajoe - you’re right, the salaries are determined by supply and demand, ie ‘how little can we get away with paying?’ Considering this, the nature of the job itself does come into the equation. If the job were less stressful and the hours better, then more teachers would be interested in the job, and schools could get away with paying teachers less. It is about supply - but the work conditions affect the supply.
Manda JO,
I’m not a teacher, but I suspect that most school districts don’t treat their teachers as professionals/salaried employees. Yes, some professionals work as many hours as it takes to handle their caseload. Those professionals also generally have the ability to take off a couple of hours without using leave time when they need to take care of personal business, or leave early when the workload is light in a particular week. I don’t think teachers have those options. Look at the schedule CrazyCatLady posted. I bet her mom can’t take off the time between her starting time and the beginning of classes or the time between the end of classes and her quitting time without using leave time because she has a doctor’s appointment or because she’d prefer to grade those essays or prepare the lesson plans in the comfort of her home, or because on one particular day she has no grading to do and she’s ahead in preparing her lesson plans.
Okay, there are several points I want to address in this thread.
My disclaimer: I am a first grade teacher in the largest (area wise, not student population) school district in Arkansas.
12 weeks vacation. Where? I was in school with my class until June 6. I will resume class on August 15. That works out to about 8 weeks of summer. Now, subtract the UNPAID inservice my school required me to attend for one week. The subtract the two days of technology training they require over the summer, and the three days in July they signed me up for without asking…
Down to 6 weeks now. Now subtract the week of prefaculty meetings, classroom cleaning and prep, and openhouse/registration that I will be required to participate in for the week prior to school starting. Then subtract all the hours I will spend outside those working on my lesson plans, project design, and collaboration with my team members (other first grade teachers) on yearly goals, the new frameworks, and methodolgy-this will probably total about a week.
Now I’m down to 4 weeks. I know plenty of professionals with equal (or less, in a couple of cases) education and training that I have who also get four weeks vacation. I will never allow anyone to throw that ‘must be nice to be off work all the time’ crap at me. Jesus. Try to be a little more aware of your surroundings and a little less petty.
PAY. I covet those fancy east coast salaries. I won’t lie. It’d be SWEET to make as much money as those PA and NY teachers.
My beginning pay as a first year teacher was 21,000.
After my years and continued training, I make 26,000. Oh! and due to the ‘recession’ I will not be getting a raise of any kind this year. In fact, in my district, due to the mismanagement of funds by the administration and the state legislation (IMO), 178 teachers were pink slipped in mid-May. 178. Fired.
(btw- http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/03poverty.htm
look up 21,000 on an average national socio-economic chart. It’s a little too close to poverty level for comfort, in fact for a family of 4, poverty level is 18,400)
Basic bitching.
My district doesn’t have to pay me more money, but if they require me to follow ‘technology standards’, they may want to think about putting more than one computer in my classroom.
In closing, I AM a professional. As Manda JO said, I don’t punch a clock (I try not to punch administrators, either). I teach children.
Please remember that when you start your collective griping about how useless, moneygrubbing, and stupid we are, that situations are diffent in every district. It MAY be that the union in your very rich and well funded district is out of touch and focussed on nonessential things, but for many of us teaching in poorer (and less motivated for good education) states, we are struggling to make the most of what little funding and support we have.
I do appreciate being considered a professional. Years and years ago, I calculated what I was being paid hourly. It was depressing. I believe it came out to be around 35 cents an hour. I am a coach. During season my work day starts at 6:00AM and ends between 7:00PM and 10:00PM. In the past, I have coached two sports so this was my schedule from August through the middle of February. During the summers I supervise open gym and work camps and I am unpaid for it. In my first post, I explained that I enjoy spending time during vacation on job related activities. In fact, next week I will be planning an advisory program with a couple of other volunteer teachers. I am not a clock watcher. I do however resent the implication that I am obligated to perform these duties. It just rubs me the wrong way. There are a number of teachers that take the entire summer and devote it to their families. I respect their decision and I do not think less of them professionally. Actually, taking some time to sharpen the saw is needed. It is, after all, a marathon, not a sprint.
YMMV.