A plea to all those God-loving or -fearing types

Great Debates
1

Why do you keep trying to convince people on these boards that God exists? Thread after thread after thread, you keep on hammering away that God is here, God loves us, and if we look for God with an open heart and mind we’ll find God.

And the atheists keep saying “shove off and leave us alone.” Atheists, by and large, seem to be happy, law-abiding loving and moral creatures convinced that they have no need of God. So why do theists keep coming back?

Does it bug you that I don’t believe? Does it offend you? Are you in any danger because I don’t believe? Do you have a quota? [sub]Okay, so that’s cheeky[/sub]

Has any atheist ever converted because of what they read on this board? I don’t recall seeing one in the time I’ve spent here. Not one. How many kicks at the can do you take before you realize it’s not gonna move?

It’s Thanksgiving, so I’m off for the weekend. I’ll check in here Tuesday morning, after giving thanks that I’m happy, healthy, hopelessly in love, and rock solid in my beliefs that I am the highest power in the universe. :wink:

[sub]I’m not giving thanks to anything by the way. Just being grateful.[/sub]

2

I think this is already being covered here:
WHY God?

But to answer your question simply Barbarian, it’s often (I won’t say always) because they think you’re in danger because you don’t believe.

3

I should add that the internet is a rather unique way of meeting people; you’re meeting a lot more new people here all the time; there’s a tendency for each and every one to think you’re ‘virgin territory’[sub](awful choice of words, but you get my drift)[/sub]

4

No offense there Barb but it ain’t just the religious types who pop in and say “prove me wrong”.

In my relatively short experience here, it’s quite obvious to me that it’s pretty equal-time here. One day somebody might zip through and leave a “Here’s why Darwin was wrong (which of course then proves Creationism and thus the Bible are true and correct)” and the next day another might jump in with “Here’s a link to the new Potassium-16 Dating Technique, which proves conclusively that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old”.

The threads themselves seem pretty much tit-for-tat as well: theists argue from the Faith, nontheists argue from scientific evidence.

Speaking personally, I have to ask as a NonBeliever: If a theist relies on his ‘Faith’, his Belief that there is indeed a God, for which he has no concrete proof other than that provided by the World around him, why is that Faith any more “correct” or valid than My ‘Faith’ and Belief that that there is no ‘God’, a faith that has no concrete proof other than that provided by the World around me?

5

I’ve met a lot of religious sorts who regarded my beliefs as a personal affront. They honestly thought that I believed what I did out of some conscious desire to thwart their God. Even basically nice people sometimes don’t grasp that their own worldview is subjective: they cannot admit the possibility that they are mistaken. Since they cannot be mistaken in their beliefs, you must be willfully denying obvious truth. It’s less a matter of perceived danger and more a drive to confirm one’s own worldview.

Oh, and we’re (we being the majority of skeptics) not converting. You don’t have enough proof to satisfy a skeptic now, and you won’t in the foreseeable future. All the Creation Science and pamphlet-pushing in the world doesn’t change the core argument, which has been around since the dawn of religion. Every skeptic has heard it before a hundred times, almost certainly put forth better than you will. Repeating arguments, especially those laid down in print and electronic media, is only going to irritate people.

6

Oh, this is SO true.

I think both sides are deluded in their attempts to “convert” or convince. It’s especially bad with the Creation/Evolution thing. And it’s EQUALLY obnoxious, on both sides. I tend to avoid such threads.

I think both “sides” of this issue want to “save” the other side. They reason their obnoxiousness with “I just want you to think!” “You don’t know what you’re missing!” “I am concerned for you!” “You’re too rational to believe/not believe this thing!”

When both sides of an issue are doing this to each other, it’s pretty much a guarantee that no one is going to budge from their original position.

I am all for trying to persuade people to see things my way, but it’s gotta be a natural progression. You can’t come out swinging, being confrontational, and expect to get anywhere. It just becomes a bunch of bitching, and picking at each other, back and forth. Rarely productive.

[hijack] I could start almost this exact same thread about vegetarianism, by the way. Some people seem “personally affronted” that some of us choose not to eat meat. I am not a rabid veggie who goes around trying to “convert” people. I don’t bother anyone, I just want to be left alone with my veggies. Yet people want to “confront” me, and tell me “plants have feelings too” and just be nagging pains in the ass. Many veggies on this board have had the same experience as I have. Often an irritating “confront the veggies” thread is started on this board. (Funny, rarely do I find a veggie starting a “confront the meat-eater” thread…) I think I can speak for most veggies when I say “Save your harrassment for the veggies who are giving you a hard time. I have never given you a hard time. Go away.” [/hijack]
Some people want to “save” (their definition of “save”) the rest of us, and they can be sanctimonious pains in the ass about it. Theists are not the only ones who are guilty of this. (I’m a Christian, and I remember being cornered at a party once, and being subjected to a long-drawn-out “conversion session” by two obnoxious atheists. Real fun.) Some theists are pains in the ass, some aren’t. Some atheists are, some aren’t. Ditto for vegetarians and meat-eaters. And on and on.

7

Barbarian, how are you different? In my admittedly short time on this board, I have seen as many, or possibly more, atheists proselytize as theists. Some seem to believe that fighting ignorance = fighting all forms of religon. I wonder if my believing in something offends them. If I so much as mention that I believe in God, I am either replied to with sarcatic comments, eye-rolling smilies, or a straw man argument refuting their misunderstodd view of a fundamentalist christian tenent which I don’t believe in the first place. They seem to equate all theists with fire and brimstone Southern Babtists and act willfully ignorant to the fact that there are many, many, different ways to view the existance of God. Thankfully, this does not apply to all atheists, but there are too many who act this way.

Remember that you started this thread attacking theism. If your goal is to criticize proselytizing, your ivory tower seems to have a pretty shaky foundation.

I am sorry if my response comes across as a bit strong, it is just that I have heard this hypocritical lament before. What is happening is that some people, on both sides, feel the overwhelming need to convince others of their world view. They refuse to even make a cursory effort to understand the other side and show a remarkable lack of respect for other viewpoints. I agree that this is annoying.

Have a happy Thanksgiving. Where are you anyway? We celebrate it the third week of November.

yosemitebabe, [Jack Handy] would you feel the same way about being a vegetarian if science found out that vegetables could scream? You might, if they screamed all the time and for no good reason[/Jack Handy]
-Beeblebrox

He hoped and prayed that there wasn’t an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn’t an afterlife.

8

Maybe, but you must admit that there is a rather fair amount of Theist baiting in these parts…Beeblebroxexplained it rather well. I’ve seen far more threads railing against the existence of God/religion than I’ve seen of people witnessing and such. They’re both obnoxious.

Sorry…I’m the highest power in the universe, not you.

9

It gives them something to do on Saturday nights. Without us atheists and non-believers to convert, their minds would start drifting into other – dangerous! – areas, like “Sue sure looks pretty tonight,” “I wish I had a big car like Roger does,” or even “Just for laughs, let’s pretend there is no God…”

10

I’m an athiest. But I prostelytize all the time. I do it because I know that most believers waste a fantastic amount of time and misery, and often a lot of scratch, too, on trying to please a God that doesn’t exist. I’d like to help them so they don’t have to do that. (Although I admit I do sometimes get frustrated when they refuse to see what’s so obviously the truth.) I assume that the religious prostelytizers feel the same way – they think I’m going to hell, and they’re trying to save me. Even though it’s annoying, I appreciate the concern and I’m generally happy to let them continue. After all, they’re never going to convince me of something as aburd as most traditional theist concepts are, so why run from it?

–Cliffy

11

Hey, look!

Fundamentalist Skepticism.

“God didn’t say it. I don’t believe it. And that’s good enough for me.”

I’m kidding. Sometimes people get soooo wound up about this stuff. Holy Moley…

Or if you prefer, Not-Holy Moley…

Sure looks pretty tonight,
–B

12

see rjung

see Cliffy, even though I disagree vehemenently with his position.

Mr. Billy, I prefer Blessed Moley, but only if said underground rodent dwells within the light of the Lord.

13

Beeblebrox wrote:

According to my handy-dandy wall calendar, Canadian Thanksgiving is on October 8th this year. We probably have a Canadian Barbarian on our hands.

Incidentally, Barbarian, we Yanks typically celebrate Thanksgiving on the next-to-last Thursday of November, by cooking a giant bird for 6 hours and then inviting the whole extended family to gorge on its carcass. What’s a typical Canuck Thanksgiving like?

14

Well, geez, anytime somebody thinks they have a good thing going (a super-energizing metabolism-cranking lo-carb diet, a tip for keeping your toilet bowl minty fresh, some herbal concoction that cures the common cold, a gasoline additive that will double your MPG, or the forgiveness of the Almighty God) they want to share it with you, 'cause they want to give you a hand–in this case, snatch your soul back from the fiery pits of hell.

Least you could do is show a bit of gratitude. :slight_smile:

When it’s one guy who just won’t shut up about what a friend we could have in Jeeezus, well, that gets annoying, but it’s not fair to come down like a ton of bricks on some poor newbie who isn’t keeping his light under a bushel.

And the sophmoric athiests are as bad as the close-minded Christians. The frequently-recurring ultimate disproof-of-god thread (“Well, why do bad things happen to good people? Huh? Take that, god-boy!”) is almost more annoying than the eternally-popular Pascal’s Wager thread.

15

Same thing. Our crop is in already. What’s taking you Yank’s so long? Fortunately for Canucks, we have two and half months to digest the food before we repeat the feast at Christmas.

16

I consider myself a Christian, but I do not try to persuade anyone to jump into my religion. It’s not my position to pass judgment on others, so how can I say who is going to hell? The only reason I defend my faith on these boards is to fight ignorance about the Christian faith. The word “Christian” gets lumped together with Jack Chick, Jehovah’s witnesses, and stupid people who just follow like sheep because they want to or are afraid that they will not win God’s favor.

Atheists tend to be extremely vain. A common thing is to show off their vast vocabulary, but expose their ignorance on the subject. One of the most common questions asked is “How can God allow bad things to happen?” Another is “How could God have created the earth in six days?” To me, these questions expose the ignorance of the person asking them. The answers, I think, are very clear in the bible. Atheists are also very intellectual people, but Christians can be as well. We’re not just mindless followers who “fear” God and make decisions based on emotion, instead we revere Him. (The word “fear” means “to revere” in the context of the bible–this requires translation research on the part of those bent on fighting ignorance).

My motivation for being a Christian is not whether or not I’ll go to heaven. Frankly, I rarely ever think about that because it’s not my choice. My motivation is that I’ve looked into the bible and examined the things that seemed like contradictions and sought answers.

When you hear “Jesus loves you and you need to be forgiven or else you’ll go to hell” that may sound very stupid. But to me, it’s not any stupider than “There’s no evidence of God, so therefore I’m not going to believe in Him.” Think about it, if you created the universe and wanted people to decide whether or not to believe in you, why would you give them the answer before the question was even asked?

There will never be a “rapture,” Adam and Eve didn’t eat an apple that a snake gave them, and the world is not 4,000 years old. So be careful not to make assumptions about Christian beliefs based only on the loud ones.

So if you want to become a Christian, I’ll tell you how. But I’m not going to perpetuate the stereotype by trying to scare you over to my side. I’ll just answer whatever questions people want answered, even the dumb ones. All I ask is that my dumb questions are answered in return. It is possible to be civil and Christian. My bible still has the pages that say to love your neighbor as yourself. I don’t even care if you worship the devil, anyone can at least see the wisdom in that.

17

Wow! I just want to say that this thread is why I love my freedom. We are free to disagree and debate and discuss. I try to respect others’ belief systems, but I draw the line when women are not treated as humans, but as chattel, or as something to hide. I concede that men may be biologically stronger, but there is no reason why a woman could not be a U.S. president. And right now, I wish we had one. I digress.

To get back to the issue: I would never try any convincing because I consider myself neutral.

18

Dale The Bold wrote:

Of course not – Bishop Ussher’s proclamation makes the world 6,004 years old. :wink:

19

Correction, 6005 years old.

20

Enlighten me.

Why is money given for religious purposes automatically considered wasted? Many hospitals, schools, charities, and relief organizations are funded by various faiths. One would think that money going to schools and hospitals is not wasted.

To make such a broad generalization about why people give of their time and money is ludicrous. I give of my time and money not to please God, but to help my fellow humanity.

I could spend my entire life trying to please God, and it would amout to naught. But, because God has given me this wonderful gift of love, I feel compelled to respond in kind by having compassion for others.

I will never be able to convince anyone that he or she is “going to hell”. That isn’t my concern. My concern is with making the world as good as it can be.

God bless,
-Soup