A question about cults

Has there ever been an incident of a cult, which the leader later revealed, was entirely made up for “fun” or psychological experiment purposes? (obviously outside of what would be condoned by the psych. community)

I think most people would assume that various doomsday cult leaders (Jones Town, that Marshall Appelgate guy) are themsevles pyschologically disturbed. But I wonder if this is true? I wonder if anyone has ever done it simply to see if they can get away with it?

I’ve heard L. Ron Hubbard apparently stated he wanted to just make up a religion for the hell of it - is there any evidence scientology is just a fraud*? Is there a chance he might at some point say, “Ahahaha! You all fell for it!”?

(*By fraud, I mean “not truly believed in by those in charge” - irrespective of how silly it obviously is.)

Well, yes.

But if I tell you about it, you’ll tell everyone else, and then the word will get out, and I won’t have any followers.

And THEN who’s gonna wash my car?

Can’t think of any jokes (although some may have started that way, I think it would be hard for a charismatic leader to deal with that much power without beginning to believe things, even a little, himself). But there are some cases of “Oops, did I say the end is near and your only path to salvation is through this newfangled religion? 'cause it’s not,” though good cult info is hard to find (most of it coming from Christian groups or even Scientologists).

While more of a rebel group than a full blown cult, members of “God’s Army” in Burma must have been pretty embarrassed when their leaders, twin teenage boys, were caught and sent home to Mommy.
And members of a Taiwanese cult in Texas couldn’t explain why God hadn’t appeared on TV as their leader predicted. Then there was no nuclear war, as foreseen by Chen Hon-Ming, in 1999. Keep your fingers crossed for his whole “salvation through UFOs” theory , though.
Plus I’m sure a bunch of Year 2000 Doomsday Cults probably disbanded, promising never to speak of their activities again.

^^^ Right. These “mistakes” just show that the leaders very likley are bona-fide crazy.

I can entertain the idea that someone starts a cult as a joke/experiment but then the power that is brought unto them leads to their own corruption.

I still find it unusual that there have been no proven examples of “joke cults”.

Well the moonies are suspected of being tied into the South Korean government and of the South Korean CIA

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/m/moonies/moonhistory.htm?FACTNet

I’ve read other stuff saying the same thing. Steven hassan, a former cult member, wrote a book about cults in which he goes into detail about the ties between the moonies and the South korean CIA.

I read the article and it seems to me the Moonies’ leader was just a former cult member who split off to form his own cult, whom had members with governmental connections.

Well, there is the Church of the SubGenius . . . which might qualify as a “joke” cult except that all of its doctrines are absolutely true. Check out www.subgenius.com.

Just to clarify the L Ron link…

The way I heard it is that L Ron, Harlan Ellison and two other struggling sci fi writers of the decade were sitting around playing cards. L Ron stated at some point during the evening that the real money was in starting a religion. Thus, Scientology was born.

Is this true? Not sure but it could be.

I tried reading Dianetics and wow…I have less respect for Scientologists than I do for most other religious folk and that’s saying something!

Posted by bcflyer:

Harlan Ellison is still alive. Has he ever publicly commented on this story?

I’ve also heard that story, but with L. Ron saying it to Heinlein. Haven’t some speculated that the Fosterite religion in Stranger in a Strange Land is at least partially a reference to Dianetics/Scientology?

According to this page, he used to say it a lot.

I refuse to let this thread die. I haven’t received an actual response to my OP. Can I only assume that indeed, such a revelation has never taken place?

And I’m not sure the Subgenius people would count either; its doctrine may be taken serioulsy, but it seems to me it literally is a joke cult. When I say “joke cult”, I mean a cult in which the leader does not believe in his own teachings, AND is doing it for the sole intent of experimenting in human pyschology, BUT the members of the cult are completely unaware of this and DO take it seriously.

Something like, “gee, some people sure are dumb. I wonder if I could convince people that a giant sloth lives behind the Andromeda galaxy, and that he is slowly making his was to Earth to save us all. Yes, I’ll call it the Cult of the Sloth. Hmm, I wonder if I can pull this stunt off…?”

This site has this excerpt.

"Harlan Ellison is a science fiction author and movie scriptwriter. In an interview, he has said such things as “I was there the night L. Ron Hubbard invented [Dianetics]”. In a 1999 telephone interview, Mr. Ellison gave more details. In 1950, when he was 15, Ellison attended meetings of the Hydra Club. This was a New York club of science fiction writers, and he remembers Hubbard taking part in a discussion of how well a religion would pay. Ellison quoted the phrase as “what you need to do is start a religion”, but did not claim to have remembered it word-for-word after 49 years. "
The mentioned was in the Nov.-Dec. '78 issue of a magazine called Saturday Evening Wings. The quote from the magazine is:

“Scientology is bullshit! Man, I was there the night L. Ron Hubbard invented it, for Christ Sakes! I was sitting in a room with L. Ron Hubbard and a bunch of other science fiction writers. L. Ron Hubbard was famous among science fiction writers because he was the first one to have an electric typewriter…”

interview

There are a number of well-known religious movements which show signs of having been founded as an intentional, cynical hoax. And then again, maybe they weren’t.

Hats off to bcflyer for finding a cite about someone claiming to have heard Hubbard’s remark. Numerous stories have circulated about Hubbard having supposedly made the remark to one science fiction writer or another. As noted above, Robert Heinlein is another person often named.

The Church of Scientology, understandably, denies the story. They cite information that George Orwell had made a similar remark years before, and claim that it became misattributed to Hubbard. It is, of course, possible that more than one prominent person has made a remark of this kind.

To insert a note of skepticism, while I have no reason to doubt Ellison’s veracity, people do sometimes remember things which never exactly happened. In fact, it’s rather common. While I am in no way a supporter of Scientology, I have always been a little skeptical of these stories.

This is because Dianetics was not orginally promoted in a religious context. “The new science of mind” only took to calling itself a religion after it had been marketed for a few years. Critics have suggested–quite reasonably I think–that Hubbard started calling it a religion (even though it does not hold worship services), only because if he didn’t hide under the cloak of religious freedom the government would have shut him down as a medical quack.

It has been argued many times that Hubbard’s highly erratic behavior would be consistent with his having been a paranoid schizophrenic. If so, there is a legitimate question as to how much of his stuff he actually believed.

Back in the 1980s–I’m sorry I don’t have a cite handy–a document which had supposedly circulated among the leadership of the Jehovah’s Witnesses was leaked to the press. In it there was a discussion of whether the leadership should announce it had gotten a new revelation from God, altering one of the basic tenets of the faith. A central doctrine among the Jehovah’s Witnesses holds that the world will end before all of the people alive on a certain date in 1914 have died. Citing a kind of built-in obsolesence, it was suggested in the memo that this ought to be changed, and possibly followers should instead be taught that the world would end before everybody who knew somebody who had been alive on that date had died.

Harvard University was in possession for decades of the Scroll of Abraham, a document supposedly delivered to Joseph Smith Jr., founder of the Church of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) by an angel. After considerable delay, the university released a report giving the unanimous conclusion of its researchers: the scroll was, in fact, a scrapbook made out of fragments of a relatively late copy of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, with one portion of the manuscript pasted in upside-down.

The Church later issued a statement that this was irrelevent, as God could have caused Smith to translate anything as a holy revelation, whether the words were literally there in the original document or not.

In or around 1960 the Hearst newspaper chain published information demonstrating that Wali Fard, founder of The Nation of Islam, was in fact, one Wallace Ford, a con man with an incredibly extensive criminal background. Interestingly, although Fard preached the inherent inferiority of the white race, he was himself a dark-skinned Caucasian. The Nation of Islam promptly offered a substantial reward for anyone who could prove the claims of the Hearst paper, but declined to pay off when Fard’s own widow produced documents substantiating the claim.

As for The People’s Temple, there have been some very interesting allegations but, so far as I know, not much proof to back them up.

Biographers of the Reverend Jim Jones have reported that he consulted early in his career with Father Divine, an African-American preacher in Harlem who claimed to be God incarnate. It is said that among other advice on operating a cult, Divine told him not to feel guilty about using women in the movement for sex. This was dramatized in a made-for-TV movie in which Jones was played by Powers Booth and Father Divine was played by James Earl Jones.

Some conspiracy theorists have made a great deal of the fact that a few members of Jones’ inner circle were supposedly ex-CIA employees. One suggestion has been that the Temple started out as a kind of field experiment in mind control, and got out of hand.

If so, there is a question as to whether Jones was himself a knowing participant in the experiment at the start, and when, exactly, he flipped out.

This points out the ambiguity in all of the cases cited above: in each instance there are abundant reasons for suspecting that the founders of movements were cynics and fakes, but the possibility that they were, instead, suffering from self-delusion also exists. Apparently, it comes down to a matter of faith, even if we regard a religion is bogus.

I think Anton LeVey’s Satanism probably counts.

Ah, so we’re already back into labeling outfits as cults? How long has it been…two, three days since?

Hah-
cults don’t even have to be sinister or intentional;
Join Me is just daft.