You’re both right that there’s no open glorification of Nazi ideology to be found on the site, but note that if that was the case, the owner of the site could easily get into legal trouble in Germany. There’s even a long and rather convoluted disclaimer where he kind of distances himself from glorification of the Third Reich.
But I’ve got a gut feeling that a site dedicated to document Nazi bunkers and soldier songs of the Wehrmacht in the way the site does hints to a backwards and no good agenda. I’d certainly wouldn’t classify it as being mainstream in a German context rather than a fringe dedication to special aspects of that time.
His words (difficult as they may be to read due to abysmal spelling) are more clearly outspoken against the Nazi regime than I would have thought at the sight of Qin’s first link.
However, first he speaks of a regime that “defied” or “challenged” the world - not quite the terminology I or the vast majority of my countrymen and -women would use in that context.
The name of the website, the focus on the “Volk”-aspect and its overall feel with the horrible animated GIF-flags makes one rather suspicious of underlying ideology. The whole spiel about “our fathers’ and grandfathers’ songs” is very indicative of a mindset that might not want to agree with the Holocaust outright, but doesn’t seem to mind that time period very much.
I know that Germans tend to view nostalgia for, or even interest in, the country’s pre-1945 period, as well as sympathy for WWII soldiers, or any kind of German national sentiment, as suspect, because of their history with the Nazis. (And perhaps because these interests are also shared by neo-Nazis.) But nobody would bat an eye if, say, an American had corresponding hobbies, for example an interest in soldiers fighting in one of the US’s rather imperialistic 19th century wars, or maybe the Indian Wars. And of course there’s a whole movement of Civil War reenactors. (I will admit that Southerners are often accused of thinking that war is still on.)
So as Germans, what would you say? Is it possible for a modern German to be interested in WWII bunkers and soldiers and military songs without being a Nazi sympathiser? Or are the two inextricably linked in the German psyche?
As long as German farmers (and city dwellers, in some cases) keep finding unexploded bombs from the war, it will continue to be on their minds, I think.
There also still is some anti-semetism and there are still skinheads roaming the streets.
As for the rest of it, I bow to my more historically-oriented friends. I was only 11 when we emigrated and all I know of my country’s history is what I have read and seen on tv.
Speaking on behalf of my German family however, they don’t speak of it. Ever.
Well, I think that it’s perfectly possible for a German to be interested in these things from an architectural or musical/scientific angle, but as Pitchmeister said, this special website presents itself in a way that lets one get suspicious that its purpose is simply to keep the memory of the “good old times” alive as exemplified by bunker architecture and soldier songs. The mere fact that the author felt obliged to add the “This is not a Nazi site” disclaimer, and the way he dances around the actual crimes of those times in it without really naming them, the heavy use of the “Volks” aspect **Pitchmeister **already mentioned and other aspects of the site let me assume that the author is maybe not a Neonazi, but at least has a nostalgic German-national attitude with a blind eye to the real character of the atrocities of those times. And yes, such an attitude is usually frowned upon in nowadays mainstream Germany.
If you ever watch Antiques Roadshow, you will see that many blacks are collectors of what could easily be considered “racist” artifacts (stereotypical caricatures of Negros as salt and pepper shakers, sketches, advertisements, etc.). Call it morbid curiosity or an attempt to keep that part of history relevant - at first it seems odd that someone directly affected would want to collect those artifacts, but then it starts to make sense in a purely historical aspect.
I could see that for purely historical reasons, some Germans might like to have a site with songs of that era - not so much for the glory of time gone by, but to hear the words and music popular with soldiers during the war. Propaganda has always been a collectable and of interest to people interested in getting into the mindset of people they might despise, but still want to understand.
I went to see the premiere of Cabaret (film with Liza Minnelli) in EAST Berlin back in the day. The film had been a huge hit in West Berlin for many years, but finally got to the East. One interesting tidbit - the song “Tomorrow Belongs To Me” (with the young blond Nazi singing in the beer garden) had been cut from the West German version - they really do have strong anti-Nazi laws, but it was NOT cut from the East German version of the film. It was exactly at that song that the mood of the audience took a decided turn - prior to that, lots of laughing and everyone enjoyed the film, but once they sang that song, dead silence in the movie theater.
After the film, I asked my East German friends, “what happened? Why did everyone go so quiet suddenly?”
To paraphrase my friend Wolfgang: “Up until that song, I was quite happy to see how great Germany was with the wild lifestyle and decadence and fun - but when that song came on, it was very clear how easily I too could have gotten sucked into becoming a Nazi and it scared me.”
So, at least for that audience, the music had a very strong impact - not in the sense of “gee, that was a glorious moment” as much as “holy crap, that has a powerful impact!”
Exactly. In that one pic of a Soldatenliederbuch (sixth row from top, second from left), somebody had totally taken a Sharpie and blacked out the swastika in the Reich emblem…
On an unrelated note, I saw that one of the songs was called U Boot Lied. I wonder if it went:
I didn’t recall this scene, you I found it on youtube. I now have a very strong desire to hit that kid with a crowbar, which is usually a sign of Half Life overload. This is a good example of why I’m suspicious of patriotism and nationalism. It’s also why I’m glad I live in a country where everybody finds overt patriotism a bit off-putting.
In addition the songs themselves are mostly apolitical or just patriotic. I don’t see anything like say the Horst Wessel Song there just German patriotic songs like say The Watch on the Rhine or the German national anthem Deutschland Uber Alles. Not to mention they’re quite catchy.
Only the third stanza of the Deutschlandliedis the current national anthem; the first stanza, the one most closely associated with Nazism, is too bombastically exceptionalist, the second is just about booze and chicks:
Unity and justice and freedom
For the German fatherland!
For these let us all strive
Brotherly with heart and hand!
Unity and justice and freedom
Are the pledge of fortune
Post WWII German patriotism carries a lot of historical baggage.
I studied German for three years in school and have traveled in Germany and Switzerland within the past few years. I am nowhere near fluent, but I can read German well enough to manage signs, labels, etc. I would not be able to “understand the context” of a website written entirely in German, and neither can you. English is not close enough to German for someone who has never studied German to be able to do this. Most of the obvious cognates are basic words like “Man”, “Land”, etc., which may be enough to give you a general idea of what a song is about but is not going to give you any clue as to the political views of the site’s creator.
I have no idea if the linked site expresses nostalgia for the Nazi era or other non-mainstream views, but if native German speakers say they feel it does then I don’t see how you’re in any position to argue.
The Horst Wessel lied is forbidden under German law.
The Watch on the Rhine was used for propaganda purposes under Napoleon and that was then hijacked by the Nazis.
The German national anthem is NOT “Deutschland über alles”. That’s the first verse which is no longer used. The official anthem is the third verse. (Which is unfortunate because the original intent of the poet was to get Germans of different states to look beyond their petty issues and unite for the greater good, way before the Nazis, and when german-speaking communities did indeed reach as far as the Maas and the other borders given.
After the Nazis misused both the song and the imperialist conquest, the connotations today and implications are too unfortunate for the first verse to be ever sung innocently or in the original intent again.
Generally, patriotism is suspect in Germany because the Nazis used blind patriotism for allegiance. Likewise, militarism is suspect in Germany.
So songs glorifying soldiers and celebrating war, even if purporting to be non-Nazis, are still not part of modern democratic Germany, but associate themselves with back-ward oriented, anti-democratic mindset and forces.
Patriotism and militarism are generally considered by modern (not-backwards) Germans to be signs of blind, unquestioning love that’s easily twisted and exploited by demagogues and not fitting for a democratic person, who’s supposed to be educated, enlightened and critical questioning of everything instead of blindly following.
We see no reason for patriotism, because besides the luck of being born in the right country to the right parents, what did Müller or Schmidt do to be proud of their country? If they did something good, like Helmut Schmidt during the great flood helping people, then they are proud of their own achievments and their own small effort (small in the overall scheme) of making their own country a better place, while still being aware of how many things are not good and need to be improved.
Likewise, for militarism, it’s also considered backward and for dumb, uneducated people, because people who’ve read “Im Westen nichts Neues” (All quiet on the western front) or listened to parents/ grandparents telling of the horrors of war, war is nothing glorious or heroic; soldiers fight battles to kill people, but don’t bring freedom or democracy; and war is never clean, esp. not a bombing war on cvilians.
Therefore, we also see the rampant, unquestioned patriotism and militarism in the US very critical.
