A question about the anti-christ and anti-christians.

[Mangetout]

@BrainGlutton

BTW, what does the thread title mean by “anti-christians”?

They’re the folks that send each other antichistmas cards, and engage in heated debates as to whether it’s a just a fun game, or a big bad lie to bring your kids up to believe in antisanta.

[rwjefferson]

@BrainGlutton

Worked for Humpty Dumpty . . .

So tell me already, which point is it that you wish to deny?

[BrainGlutton]

@rwjefferson

So tell me already, which point is it that you wish to deny?

That “antichrist” has anything to do with “antichristians” as you have defined the latter.

[rwjefferson]

@BrainGlutton

That “antichrist” has anything to do with “antichristians” as you have defined the latter.

Please tell me why.

r~

[BrainGlutton]

@rwjefferson

Please tell me why.

r~

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist#The_New_Testament:

Contrary to a popular misconception and to the surprise of many Christians and non-Christians, the actual words “Antichrist” or “Antichrists” do not appear in the entire text of the Book of Revelation (e.g. in relation to the Tribulation, Beast, Dragon, Whore of Babylon, False Prophet, etc.), the Book of Daniel (e.g. in relation to the Abomination of Desolation or the Beasts/Empires) or Paul’s passages on the “Man of Sin” in 2 Thessalonians 2. The words “Antichrist” or “Antichrists” are never used by Christ during his ministry, including his discussion about the signs of the “End of the Age” in Matthew 24. While the word “Antichrist” does not appear in these sources, the concept has been recognized in that “scripture warns against a false Christ image that becomes a living icon, and an object of worship (Revelation 13:14-15). Satan’s plan is to be worshiped as God and Savior (Isaiah 14:12-14; 2Thessalonians 2:3-4; 2Corinthians 11:14” (excerpt from Norbert H. Kox’s artist’s statement at http://nhkox.homestead.com/)

The words “Antichrist” and “Antichrists” appear only five times in the Bible - in two of the Apostle John’s three letters in the New Testament, 1 John and 2 John:

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. (1John 2:22, ESV)

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. (1John 2:18, ESV)

and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. (1John 4:3, ESV)

Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist (2John 1:7, ESV.)

In these contexts, “Antichrist” seems to describe any false teacher, false prophet or corrupter of the Christian faith, but sometimes also seems to indicate a specific person or single spirit of deception that motivates false teaching and whose presence is a sign of the end times. However, in popular understanding, many Christians identify this particular Antichrist with the “man of sin” or “son of perdition” mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2, and with several figures in the Book of Revelation including the Dragon, the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Whore of Babylon. The Antichrist is variously understood to be a group or organization, such as a consummately evil system of government or a false religion, or more commonly as an individual, such as an evil government leader, a religious leader who sets up false worship in place of the worship of Christ, the incarnation of Satan, a son of Satan, or a human being under the dominion of Satan.

The “Pharisees” you denounce as “anti-christians” – meaning, apparently, anyone who denounces “sinners” – fit neither sense of the term. In fact, Paul and the Disciples and Jesus himself would be “anti-christians” by your definition. They were denouncing sinners all the time.

[saoirse]

Boy now I wish we did have the Antichrist smiley.

As brain explained above, the Antichrist is a false Christ, just as the Antipope was a false pope (according to the winners). This is exactly how he is described in Revelations.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@saoirse

Boy now I wish we did have the Antichrist smiley.

As brain explained above, the Antichrist is a false Christ, just as the Antipope was a false pope (according to the winners). This is exactly how he is described in Revelations.

There is no “Antichrist” in the Book of Revelation.

[saoirse]

@Diogenes the Cynic

There is no “Antichrist” in the Book of Revelation.

Yes, I know. I meant that the figure we call the Antichrist is a replacement of Christ, not an opponent.

[Anne_Neville]

@Mangetout

They’re the folks that send each other antichistmas cards, and engage in heated debates as to whether it’s a just a fun game, or a big bad lie to bring your kids up to believe in antisanta.

Only 34 shopping days left until Anti-Christmas!

@rwjefferson

Mankind is forever plagued by “pharisees”. You will recognize them by their sin of pride in their “literal word” interpretation of their bible (holy book).

That’s quite ironic, because the Pharisees, and their successors the Rabbis of the Talmud, were against interpreting the Bible literally (as Judaism today generally is), unlike some other branches of Judaism at the time. You should realize that the way you use the word “Pharisees” is seen by some Jews as insulting us. Jesus’ teachings were actually pretty much consistent with the beliefs of the Pharisees. There’s a theory that the insulting references to Pharisees in the New Testament were put in after Jesus’ time, when it was clear that most Jews weren’t going to convert to Christianity.

[saoirse]

@Anne Neville

That’s quite ironic, because the Pharisees, and their successors the Rabbis of the Talmud, were against interpreting the Bible literally (as Judaism today generally is), unlike some other branches of Judaism at the time. You should realize that the way you use the word “Pharisees” is seen by some Jews as insulting us. Jesus’ teachings were actually pretty much consistent with the beliefs of the Pharisees. There’s a theory that the insulting references to Pharisees in the New Testament were put in after Jesus’ time, when it was clear that most Jews weren’t going to convert to Christianity.

Technically, the whole New Testament was put in after Jesus’ time.

[Anne_Neville]

@saoirse

Technically, the whole New Testament was put in after Jesus’ time.

Yes, it was. The theory goes that the part about the Pharisees was put in after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, when the Christians had given up on trying to convert most of the Jews.

[rwjefferson]

@wikipedia

“Antichrist” seems to describe any false teacher, false prophet or corrupter of the Christian faith, but sometimes also seems to indicate a specific person or single spirit of deception that motivates false teaching and whose presence is a sign of the end times.

Works for me.

@BrainGlutton

In fact, Paul and the Disciples and Jesus himself would be “anti-christians” by your definition. They were denouncing sinners all the time.

I will agree that Saul had difficultly overcoming all of his anti-christian tendencies. But please show me the passage from your bible where jesus contradicts his own command: “If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone.” John 8:7. I expect it more likely that the spirit behind his commandments is simply beyond your understanding.

Those that persecute sin are opposite the spirit called the christ; no matter the names.

r~

[rwjefferson]

@Anne Neville

That’s quite ironic, because the Pharisees, and their successors the Rabbis of the Talmud, were against interpreting the Bible literally… You should realize that the way you use the word “Pharisees” is seen by some Jews as insulting us. Jesus’ teachings were actually pretty much consistent with the beliefs of the Pharisees. There’s a theory that the insulting references to Pharisees in the New Testament were put in after Jesus’ time, when it was clear that most Jews weren’t going to convert to Christianity.

I can see little doubt that the religious authorities of Israel felt threatened by the “heresies” of jesus and called for him to be silenced. I do not care whether my words insult arrogant hypocrites that call for or condone the persecution of (other) sinners.

My concern is not how literally someone interprets their bible for themselves; it is whether they use that interpretation in attempt to justify their crime of persecution. Be it fair or not, the new testament identifies the spirit I call pharisee with the hypocrites of the sect called Pharisee.

It is not the word or religion or sect that is relevant, it is the spirit. As a group, the Samaritans persecuted those they held as sinner and rejected jesus. Yet jesus identified the spirit of the good samaritan as his neighbor in heaven. Both jesus and the good samaritan considered themselves jews; both followed the spirit of yhwh.

We are all hostage to our birth. Yet the spirit transcends this and any other mortal grouping. Please accept my sincere apologies to any samaritan.Jews that do not yet understand the way I use the word pharisee. I hope it is the samaritan.jew that you refer to as “us”.

In the Spirit
ItS
Peace
r~

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@rwjefferson

I can see little doubt that the religious authorities of Israel felt threatened by the “heresies” of jesus and called for him to be silenced. I do not care whether my words insult arrogant hypocrites that call for or condone the persecution of (other) sinners.

What do you think Jesus taught that was “heretical” to Judaism? Some of what he taught came directly from Phariseeic tradition (like the greatest commandments, for instance).

By the way, inre: one of your earlier posts, Christos means “annointed,” not “Holy Spirit.”

[elfkin477]

@rwjefferson

I thank you for your answers and for any further clarifications.

[joking] I guess we will have to wait until after Armageddon to find out where Bush, Cheney and Rove fit in. [/joking}

The antichrist is supposed to seem to do miracles…no way in hell he’ll be a politician, for all the horns and tails we believe they might be hiding. They can’t even keep campaign promises!

[BrainGlutton]

@elfkin477

The antichrist is supposed to seem to do miracles…no way in hell he’ll be a politician, for all the horns and tails we believe they might be hiding. They can’t even keep campaign promises!

I’d say turning the 9/11 attacks into the invasion of Iraq counts as a miracle.

[rwjefferson]

All quotes Diogenes the Cynic

What do you think Jesus taught that was “heretical” to Judaism?

Absolutely nothing. What is your thinking?

Some of what he taught came directly from Phariseeic tradition (like the greatest commandments, for instance)

I have absolutely no doubt that his neighbors, the enlightened.jewish.pharissees, helped to inspire his understanding of yhwh. Yet I will also readily bet it was the idolator.jewish.pharisees that “inspired” his passion and death.

By the way, inre: one of your earlier posts, Christos means “annointed,” not “Holy Spirit.”

Thanks.

christian (def):

1. one that stands against the persecution of other sinners
2. one anointed by the holy spirit. (syn): yhwish

It is as it was. I earlier identified the marks of land and sea beast. Have you noticed yet how they become more exalted as they call each other evil?

ItS
r~