I wouldn’t say that religious people are especially ignorant, rather that when it comes to the mysteries of the universe, we are all ignorant to a great extent. But while science tries its best to explain things from observation and subsequent testing of theory , religion considers all the answers to be unchanging based on the words of people who lived and died thousands of years ago. It’s this arrogance which riles me, especially when it comes from those who follow a religion which preaches humility.
These four are the ones I would have mentioned, particularly 2 and 4. I’ll add “a general history of the times in which the Bible took place and or was written”.
I’m aware that not all Christians are ignorant, but I’ve known devout and intelligent Christians who had no idea the Bible wasn’t all written down as they went along, that Jesus wasn’t the only (or the first) virgin birth (or that most ancients would have known of others), honestly believe that there’s independent historical accounts of the events of the Bible, etc… My medical doctor, a man who presumably went through med school and is most definitely a very devout Christian, did not realize that the New Testament was written in Greek rather than Hebrew, and when I went to a Dead Sea scrolls exhibit few people seemed to have a clue who the Essenes were (or for that matter the Sadducees and the Pharisees who figure prominently in the Bible).
I’d like to see Christians read the Other Parts of the Bible as well as the “I.come.in.peace” and “catching the gay is abomination” parts. Read the just truly weird laws and the carnage of the O.T. and remember that this book isn’t all puppy dogs and loving thy neighbors “common sense wisdom”. Since it couldn’t be clearer that the God of the O.T. is WILDLY different in priorities and the like than the God of the N.T. (not the latter is always a velvet teddy bear Himself) they should be aware of and discuss in church the Euthyphro dialogue (it’s pagan but it’s relevant: are things moral because God says they are or does God say things are moral because they are objectively so? If the former then who’s to say God won’t decide tomorrow “I want everybody to be gay and start sacrificing doves again! And eating vegetables is a sin” and if it’s the latter then what does it say that he found things immoral once that He doesn’t now?" These things should be talked about a lot more in Sunday schools. Church history, and the history of other religions and how they compare and contrast (particularly Judaism and Islam of course) should be debated more, and the differences in how they perceive God, etc… Basically, to borrow a line from To Inherit the Wind and possibly the Scopes trial itself, I want them “to think about what they do think about”.
And I’m well aware that there are many who do, but in my experience they’re by far the minority. The religion’s been intentionally and deliberately de-intellectualized over the past few centuries, particularly throughout American history, and I’d like to see it restored a bit.
I’m honestly not sure whether I’ve called believers “ignorant” or not, but the shoe certainly fits! At least for the vast majority of believers.
They can accurately be considered ignorant on at least two fronts:
(1) Polls of Christian believers in the U.S. have found that a shockingly high percentage of them are ignorant the major aspects of their own belief system, including, for example, in their knowledge of the Bible. Only a minority of Christians could name the four evangelists / names of the four Gospels when asked. Only a minority knew who supposedly delivered the Sermon on the Mount. Most Christians can’t even name 5 of the Ten Commandments, and as we saw revealed starkly and hilariously on the Colbert Report, even a die-hard evangelical Christian pushing a bill to place the Ten Commandments in public buildings couldn’t list them!
(2) In a deeper sense, nearly all believers are ignorant of the information that seriously – perhaps fatally – challenges their beliefs. How many Christians are aware that the genuine Pauline Epistles are the orthodox New Testament’s writings that were prepared closest to the ostensible time of Jesus, and that these writings show Paul knew nothing of Jesus’ alleged ministry? Knew nothing of Jesus’ alleged birth and travels and teachings? Knew next to nothing about Jesus’ alleged words? And was completely ignorant of the life stories to be penned as the Gospels?
How many know there are at least two flatly contradictory versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible? (Exodus 34 & Exodus 20) How many of these realize the challenge this brings to a belief in the Bible, certainly at least a literal belief?
How many know that the alleged Old Testament “prophecies” of Jesus are nothing of the kind; e.g., Isiah 7:14? How many are aware of the enormous discrepancies between the Synoptics and the Johannine Gospels? How many know that there was no “slaughter of the innocents”? That there was no compatible census dating Jesus’ ostensible birth? That no one was required to return to their home towns for any census?
How many know that the author(s) of Mark repeats himself with two virtually identical “Loaves and Fishes” stories (Mark 6:32-44 and Mark 8:1-10), at least one of which is absurd in that it portrays the disciples as having completely forgotten the other episode?
How many Mormons are aware that their belief system is full to overflowing with empirical claims that, unlike ancient religions, can easily be determined to be false? How many are aware that Joseph Smith told several completely incompatible stories about the Gold Plates to his various friends and neighbors? How many know that it remains a part of their official dogma that the planet Earth flew through space from Kolob to Sol when Adam and Eve allegedly sinned?
I could go on and on.
So, are most believers ignorant? Quite emphatically, yes. I don’t understand why so many here reject that.
I don’t reject the assertion they are ignorant. Everyone’s ignorant about a lot of things; there’s just too much knowledge out there, and the temptation to think yourself smarter than average snags the majority of us, no matter what our beliefs. I reject the assertion they are any more ignorant in general than atheists.
Why? On what grounds?
In my experience, most atheists / agnostics / freethinkers are substantially more literate and generally well-informed than most believers. What makes my experience so unusual?
I don’t know any Christians outside this rather unusual message board who are not profoundly ignorant about the deeper aspects of their faith and the challenges to their belief systems, yet to the best of my knowledge, every atheist / agnostic / freethinker I know has read Christian apologetics.
And what about the shockingly low number of American Christians who are even minimally competent to answer questions about the Bible?
I don’t see any basis for not considering most believers to be more ignorant than most atheists. What of the many statistics showing that the extent of religious belief falls as education level rises?
Well, in my experience, they aren’t, so there! I’ve run into Christian and Jewish surgeons, Muslim computer teachers, Hindi engineers, and all sorts of theology study types who are extremely bright. If they don’t spend hours a day question every little thing about their religion, if they prefer to take one or two things on faith, I don’t think that makes them less well-informed in general, and it certainly wouldn’t make them illiterate of all things.
Here’s an experiment. Find an orthodox Jewish shrink with twenty years of clinical work along with ten years of experience as a psych. professor and then sit down with him and debate him about–oh, I don’t know–Skinner. You’ll quickly find out who’s less ignorant and more literate.
You know, as an atheist who grew up a strict Catholic, I have read both sides of the argument. I’d consider myself pretty well read, and what I’ve read has only bolstered my atheism. But here’s something I’m not up on. I’ve let my basic CPR go. No doubt, if one of those Christian surgeons heard me say that, he’d go “Man, --” . . . OK, he probably wouldn’t say “Man”. He’d say “Wow (or possibly ‘Golly’), that Linty sure is ignorant. Not knowing basic CPR?? How freaking ignorant can you get?” And he’d be right. I am ignorant not knowing that stuff, and I’ll bet I’m not the only atheist who doesn’t know.
Get the picture? We’re all ignorant and unstudied. If Barry, the born-again Christian dentist decides to spend reading time on his tooth journals instead of apologetics and take his kids to Sunday School worship, I don’t consider him any more ignorant than myself when I read Bertrand Russell instead of studying how to restart a four-year old’s heart, which I might actually have a practical use for someday. Actually, I sort of prefer the idea of Barry sticking to tooth journals. What good is it going to do me if he’s up on his atheist theory if the root canal he’s performing on me suddenly goes north into my frontal lobe? There might not be time for him to be that kind of polymath, especially if Barry’s a family man.
To call someone ignorant because he doesn’t study what you consider to be important is–well–ignorant. Ya’ know?
But the irony is that the majority of Christian believers are ignorant of precisely the thing which should be most important to them. Anyone who doubts this need only ask their devout Christian friends to name the Ten Commandments, preferably in order. Those few Christians who are successful (and I assure you they will be in a minority) should then be asked what punishments God intends to be meted out for the breaking of these commandments. For those who aren’t certain themselves, I’ll save you the trouble of looking them up:
- Thou shalt have no other God’s before me - Punishment: Death.
- Thou shalt not make graven images - Punishment: Cursing.
- Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain - Punishment: Death.
- Thou shalt remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy - Punishment: Death
- Thou shalt honour thy father and thy mother - Punishment: Death.
- Thou shalt not kill - Punishment: Punishment: Death.
- Thou shalt not commit adultery - Punishment: Death
- Thou shalt not steal - Punishment: Death
- Thou shalt not bear false witness - Punishment: Death
- Thou shalt not covet - Punishment: Death.
Those few Christians who are successful in reciting both the Commandments and their punishments should then be asked the following question:
“How was it possible for the Jews to spend 40 years wandering through the desert after escaping the Pharaoh without knowing that murder, theft, and adultery weren’t kosher?”
If they are able to produce a satisfactory answer to that question then I’ll be genuinely impressed. However, I very much doubt any of your Christian friends will be able to produce such an answer. No matter what, they will stand convicted of ignorance on either the specifics of their religion (and while ignorance of scriptural esoterica of Romans or Obadiah might be forgivable, ignorance of the one part of the Bible God saw fit to write himself most certainly isn’t), or of the immediate logical & philosophical implications of their religion’s most fundamental claims.
And it is on the cusp of this ignorance of ancient gobbledegook, that those of us rational enough to see through it are being carried toward the rocks.
Quite ironic that in a thread (and indeed, post) attacking the ignorance of Christians (and starting a perceived irony, at that), you should make what appears to be quite an ignorant assertion yourself; that is, that the ten commandments should be most important to a Christian believer. What makes you think that is the case?
So? I don’t see any way for those meager facts to tell us that most believers are not ignorant. What a lousy argument.
In my experience in the world of software engineering and development, virtually every single one of the best was a freethinker or atheist. And in my experience, in any random group of atheists or freethinkers, the average literacy level will be significantly higher than in any random group of believers. If you claim the reverse, I won’t be able to believe you.
Another lousy argument. Where did I say they had to “question every little thing about their religion”? The evidence from polling and so forth demonstrate that most are ignorant of most of their faith’s most important tenets. That’s undeniably serious ignorance. And it fails to address the statistics showing that belief levels fall as education rises.
WTF? What kind of argument is that? That a person in a career that requires a very advanced education and literacy level isn’t likely to be ignorant? Huh?
Do you think you can come up with a more pathetic argument than that? I have my doubts.
Then believers are ignorant, QED.
That’s another incredibly weak argument there. Because no one knows everything we can’t legitimately say that most believers are more ignorant than atheists and freethinkers?
That’s a particularly ignorant argument. It’s not what I consider to be important, its what their religion considers important that they don’t know.
Sheesh.
I find it funny that alot of atheists will point out that religious people are illogical and revert to things like the Big Bang created the world or Science has all the answers.
I suggest your read up on the Cosmological arguement.
Here’s a better experiment. Select a nonbeliever and a believer at random from a given culture. Ask them about the believer’s claimed faith. You will more likely than not find that the nonbeliever knows at least as much about the claimed faith of the believer as the believer does. Often they will know substantially more.
In one sense this shouldn’t be surprising. If there are common belief systems in a culture, then those who reject those systems will in most cases know quite a bit about them - both from the “inside” perspective of those who believe, as well as an “outside” critical perspective. Many (though certainly not all) believers will simply have an uncritical “inside” perspective.
See what I mean?
Now, I never said that the ten commandments were more important than anything else, just that they constitute one of the founding principles of Christianity. Given that the ten commandments are the only part of the Bible God felt necessary to dictate personally, I don’t consider this an unreasonable position. Regardless of how important you or I consider the ten commandments to be, God evidently considers them very important indeed. Judging by the popular support Judge Roy Moore enjoyed when he tried to have the 10 commandments erected in an Alabama courthouse a couple of years ago, I’d say that a great many Christians agree. Do you know any Christians who consider the ten commandments to be entirely unimportant?
No, but I do know that many, perhaps most Christians consider them to be summed up as “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength” and “Love your neighbour as yourself”.
For which they would be ignorant, since the Ten Commandments don’t say anything much like that at all.
Ignorant? They would be simply going by what Jesus said in Mark 12*, and what Paul said in Romans 13**.
Now of course you could argue that Jesus and/or Paul were ignorant of the important facts and facets of Christianity, if you like…
- “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
** The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” "Do not covet,"and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
We’re talking about the Ten Commandments, and if that’s all a Christian could say, then yes, that Christian is ignorant.
No, we’re talking about whether a Christian considers the ten commandments to be most important. That’s what we’re talking about.
There must be some new, subtle meaning of the term ‘most important’ that I have yet to learn.
No, not really… What do you believe preceeded Earth as we know it?
Science doesn’t have an answer that can be verified. I’m not trying to villify you but simply point out that at a deeper value, we can’t prove God exists and we can’t prove Science as definite.