I Have put this here because it is religion-relevant.
I am not agnostic because I believe the definition of an agnostic as someone who recognises that there is no way to prove the non-existence of god is a bit of a pedantic one.
I fully understand that I cannot prove there is no God. And I accept the possibility that there might even be a God. But I call myself an atheist because It would be pedantic to call someone with such surity of the non-existence an agnostic.
Being such a sure-footed atheist I have been pretty patronizing, belittling, and offensive to theists in general on this Message board. It even inspired a pit thread about me.
Since then I have thought a lot about it, and decided I really have no reason to be an asshole. I want to consider all the theists on this board as friends. I want to apologise for all my past negative behaviour towards you. I realise that more often than not I wasn’t* being an ass. This is for those plenty of times when I was.
Sorry.
This thread is for all the atheists who either want to apologise for past behaviour towards theists. It is for atheists who never had a bad word or thought in the first place. It is for theists. It is not for atheists who want to use it as a vehicle for negativity towards theism.
Honestly, I’ve never understood the antagonism some atheists have towards the religiously-minded, and vice versa. To me, theism is an irrational belief system, but my thesis is that everyone has some form of irrational belief system. Atheism and rationalism are not equivalent, and, IMO, I don’t think the human mind is equipped to adopt an empirical, purely rational POV.
To waaaaaay oversimplify, Christians have prayers to bring about good results. Atheists have lucky T-shirts. Same difference.
I don’t have those, and I’m firmly in the agnostic frame of mind. I feel things that are irrational, but I try to recognize them as such. I’ve done away with superstition because I’ve come to recognize that even when I want it, it makes no difference, as far as demonstrable results are concerned. I’ve taken from my experineces that it’s best not to count on the supernatural or paranormal because, even if such things exist, they don’t appear to do anything for me one way or the other; it’s safest to operate as if they don’t exist, because to become reliant on them opens me up to undue risk that I can avoid by paying attention to mundane concerns which I have some control over. In short, I have no faith in good luck charms, and hence don’t bother to use them anymore. I don’t pray either. I don’t rely on anything that cannot be explained by what we know of the natural world through empirical study. I feel the need to turn to them, but whenever I do, I see it for what it is and shift my thoughts to what is or could be under my control. It’s an approach that has, as far as I can tell, made good-luck charms and incantations superfluous.
Doesn’t that definition cover most religious people? No true Catholic could ever acknowledge any such proof?
Hey, if you want to get really obnoxious, start getting offended by the term ‘atheist’, because it suggests a refusal of something which is offensive to you in the first place (I tried this for real once, and got a non-religious catholic :dubious: seriously riled)
I didn’t know you had a pit thread in your honor because of anti-theist remarks, Lobsang. I guess that makes us in some kind of club or something!
But seriously, I posted a mild, slightly tongue-in-cheek, though admittedly somewhat serious “anti-christian” thread in MPSIMS a couple years ago and got the shit flamed out of me in the pit for it. While that did absolutely nothing for me at the time, I’ve since realized that I’m just as clueless as everyone else on Earth and I should probably approach such subjects with a little more sensitivity and class.
Since I don’t remember ever offering a formal apology, here it is:
I seen you walkin’ down in Dopertown
I called you but you did not look around!
Why can’t we be friends?
Why can’t we be friends?
Why can’t we be friends?
Why can’t we be friends?
Seriously guys, I doubt anyone even remembers, but I’m sorry.
It was by Airman Doors USAF (In an odd way it’s an honour to be pitted by someone as well known to doperkind as him) It was called “Lobsang. What is it with you and Atheism”?
I think I probably made some regrettable comments in there too.
I felt bad about saying such ill thought out things about the belief system of, to name but two, PolyCarp and NoClueBoy Whom I both respect a lot.
That is not to say that the motivation for this thread is to appease just those two. Far from it, It is to apologise for what I can clearly see in my own past behaviour as unnecesary and unpleasant to all Theist dopers and lurkers.
I’m not going to join in the hand-stabber-wringing… err, the hand-stabbering-hand-wringing… whatever. Still, I have some thoughts that I think might be relevant.
I became an atheist about 8 1/2 years ago, and there were some times where it got ugly. Holidays were unpleasant for everybody for at least a couple of years because I was expected to go along with the program and didn’t like it. You know what? I don’t regret that. I still think my parents could have done better in dealing with the whole situation (my brother said he was an atheist a little while after I did); I think they did a poor job, especially by their own standards.
Having said that I don’t regret it, I certainly wouldn’t repeat it if I had a choice.
I’d rather get along with everyone, but as unpleasant as all that stuff was, it was part of me figuring out who I am. Without that, I don’t think I’d have the same confidence in myself and the strength to defend my views when it’s called for. I’m glad I have that. I didn’t set out to make things hard for anyone who would rather just get along, and I’d rather do that myself. But I want to get the same respect that I give.
I do remember that I spoke to my father about this maybe two years ago. I may even have apologized; I think my parents (who weren’t really observant anyway) stopped going to temple as a result of the way things went. I’m not sure what they do these days. That was not something I intended or wanted either.
This isn’t an “I hate my parents” type of thing, by the way, because I absolutely don’t. What I hope I’ve gotten across is that there are people I’ve offended and past behavior I wouldn’t do again, but I’ve learned from it. I’d like to think that’s better than just saying sorry.
Marley23 You brought up the subject of Religious holidays. I have never had a problem with them because I got used to them, and it was more about tradition than religion. It is the tradition in Britain to make a big deal about them (especially Christmas). And even now (My atheism has existed for most of my life, but only in the past few years has it become a conscious issue) I will celebrate christmas. By ‘celebrate’ I mean go along with it. I’ll buy people presents, enjoy the festivities, maybe even wear a santa hat.
If I ever have kids (it’s one of my biggest goals) I will gladly celebrate religious holidays with them, because it is a tradition.
I have alot of the same issues as you do. I’m happen to be agnostic, and at 16, still live with my parents, in a Jewish household. My parents aren’t very religious or anything, but they believe in god, especially my dad who is firm and unwavering (it makes for some pretty tough arguments, which I’ll get to later) in his belief that god (in the ;j sense of it), exists. This creates some tough issues, such as really tough debates at dinner tables, etc. but especially on the holidays, where I simply don’t feel into it, at all. I don’t feel I’ve done anything to be sorry for, but I just don’t know what exactly TO do. Sorry, not really helping the thread, but felt a need to write it out.
I’m the opposite of you, but I’m glad I’m not the only one in a ‘mixed’ marriage, so-to-speak.
I haven’t been a :smack: on this board, but there have been other places where I have been less then nice. Additionally even though I don’t mean to, I know that I can come across as harsh and possibly arrogant.
So for all those theists I’ve ticked off or inadvertantly upset along the way, I apologize.
I don’t have a problem with them at this point, though if it was my choice I probably still wouldn’t go to these extended family dinners. It’s mostly watching TV, but you know how family is. My sorta-Christian roommate told me he wants to get a Christmas tree, and I told him I’m fine with that. Speaking of the tradition angle:
No, I’ve been there, and I know I would’ve been helped by having somebody to talk to about it back then. My parents were more into the tradition side of things than anything else, especially my mother. In fact, a couple of years ago she told me she doesn’t really believe in god (except maybe in the vaguest sense) and just likes the thought of being part of a community and a tradition. ‘Thanks a fucking lot,’ I told her, ‘for not bringing this up earlier.’ I imagine there are plenty of parents like this and it sure would be helpful if they told their kids.
Heh, yeah, I’ve been through those dinner debates. If you’re interested in very general unhelpful advice, here’s my best shot: don’t pick fights and don’t let people walk over you. That’s the right balance to shoot for in the long run, anyway. You’re right not to be embarrassed about what you think, and you shouldn’t let anybody make you feel bad about it. The flip side is not to assume people are trying to make you feel that way when they’re just expressing themselves- but with family it’s probably not that hard to tell which is which.
I don’t remember the dragon being in that thread either. I’ve read the Demon Haunted World though so I get the reference. Anyway, please DON’T go digging around for a cite. That whole debacle messy and I do not want it resuscitated. And if I may be blunt, I didn’t “clue up” because of anything in those two threads; I think I was only in about the 50th percentile of people behaving shamefully there. That came later, but regardless: It’s done and overwith, nothing like that even comes close to happening in real life or on the 'net anymore, and everybody lived happily ever after :).
I’m a Christian who has no problem with atheists or agnostics unless they treat me as if I am a stereotype.
Generally, religious fundamentalists tend to make more assumptions about me than atheists do and treat me more harshly.
I go rather beserk when I see threads like Can an Atheist Be Moral? or some such silliness. I’m in your corner.
I keep hoping that the mysteries of quantum physics and the bizarrness of the possibilities of the Theory of Everything will help to keep those skeptical minds open. That’s healthy, I think.
Still, I have some thoughts that I think might be relevant.