A Question for Atheists

Great Debates
81

Huh? Try that one on again?
Science aka the Scientific Method is a process whereby we humans try to figure out how the world works. The best damn process we’ve come up with, BTW.
Too often, belief in God means : Someone told me this is so, and that’s the way it is. No, I won’t go look for myself.
But I still don’t get how you jump from the creation of the universe (if it was created) to morality?

**

Who says there’s no such thing as ‘wrong’? If the only reason you do good is because “big Deity’s gonna spank ya if ya don’t follow the rules”, then I would argue you have no morals. You’re just afraid of a threat, like a child.
By that standard, atheists are adults who act responsibly.

**

Well, if your 80 years of living are poor quality, I guess you can go volunteer to be shot. :rolleyes:
Personally, I think that this is the only chance I and every other living thing on this planet has, so murder becomes an absolutely heinous crime.

**

If you think love is the same as eating chocolate, you’ve never been loved.
Do chemical reactions occur during the state called love? Yes.

Please tell me how the existence of chemical reactions fails to make love any less real.

**

nope, you haven’t used any logic at all. Tell you what. Try sticking ‘god’ up there where you put the word “nothing” and see if it makes sense.

82

When one is a meat-eater, one believes:

  1. That the lamb chop is the main part of the meal,
  2. That the mashed potatoes and peas are merely subsidiaries,
  3. That the apple pie comes afterward,
  4. That ketchup is always an option.
    So I have to pity, even as I attempt to understand, those silly vegetarians – who clearly have such a VOID left in their lives.
83

No, don’t you see! Veggies just don’t need meat. There’s no void! There’s nothing missing since meat simply isn’t a food.

They’ve faced their morals and made a choice. They’re not just eating meat since that’s what they’ve been raised to do.

pan

(Uke - aren’t we treading dangerous grounds with this analogy? I’m sure I’m not the only one still smarting from Scylla’s pit implosion on this topic)

84

The point I’m making is that if there is no God then all your morality doesn’t mean anything. Sure you may choose not to something terrible to someone else but that doens’t matter.
Because nothing matters, outside of your own self gratification. If there is no God then there is no right or wrong.
The point I was making about love being reduced to nothing more than some very simple chemical reactions, cosmically it can’t amount to much, is that is all they are if we are not more than the winners of some lottery and just happened to rise out of the muck on a world that had the right evironment for it.
But we are more than that gentlemen. We are beings created by God and we do have an eternal soul. I do feel sorry for those who think the Bible is inconsistent, and if taken out of context it is. It’s like starting a book in the middle and just jumping chapters, it won’t make much sense.
The fact remains, if there is no God and it is just us as the lucky winners on the evolution lottery then how can there possibly be right from wrong? There are no consequences! None. Your conscience you say? What is that but just some emotional baggage leftover by your upbringing?
SO far the only thing I’ve read about the morality issue is that you make it up for yourself. So you choose to be loving and kind to your fellow “used to be single-celled organism but now we are men” things. So what. You are living up to the morailty you created for yourself. But who’s to say what is wrong or not? In this method you have no right at all to tell someone else that they are wrong. They just came to a different conclusion than you did.
You must remember that in your world of pyhsics or whatever yor religion, there is still no right or wrong. It doesn’t exist, it’s something you made up for yourself.
Sure there appear to be constants in the universe, what’s that got to do with the price of corn? Nothing. You live in a world with no right or worng, truely. Sure, other “fish who decided to walk” have come up with some laws to govern other similar creatures but so what. It doesn’t mean anything.

A real Christian does not follow the teachings of Jesus out of just fear either. It is a love thing. And this is real love, if you love someone you do it cause you want to not just because you’re afraid of the consequences. I can say without reservation that I know Christ, as sure as I know there are other people writing responses on this board. At least I don’t think the Hal2000 is responsing to just yet.
I can also vouch for the fact that since that meeting my life has been full of more Joy and Happiness than it every had before. I’ve seen things that your science and pyhsics can’t explain!!!
Without God then there is no meaning, we are just specks on the cosmic tapestry who fade into nothing. Make up your own moral code if you wish, who cares if you break it? Nothing happens anyway.

85

Really? SuperGirlfriend answers all of my questions.

Now, as far as the OP goes, I’ll admit to having no real belief in God. If you were to go back to ancient Greece (or Rome, or Egypt, or anyplace else), and ask them about the gods they believed in, they would be able to quote you chapter and verse and show you signs that the gods they believed in existed. It seems to me that we’re caught in a sort of early 21st century mythology, and that the athiests are the people who look past the surface. Mankind has always tried to explain what we couldn’t. Thunder used to be the gods angered. Now we know what it really is. As science grows, the questions that are considered “unexplainable” will be answered.

86

Of course there is. We all agree on what’s right and wrong. That agreement is somewhat fluid, changing over time, as I pointed out with the slavery example. This has been explained to you numerous times.

Umm…that’s your opinion based on faith. Not a fact. Many of us don’t need to make up mythologies to justify our existance here.

It’s inconsistent no matter how you read it.

We’ve already been over this. There are numerous consequences for wrong acts. And a belief in god or hell does not necessarily deter people from committing those wrong acts. See my comments above about people using religion and the bible to justify crimes. No one said we “make morality up for ourselves.” Maybe you should go back and read comments again.

**

Physics is not a religion. Believing in God or being Christian makes you religious. Studying physics or another sciences does not. Just because you believe in something, or agree with something that doesn’t make it a religion. I believe I’m going to have lunch at noon today, that doesn’t mean I’m a lunchist.

**

You know fish who decided to walk? Wow! I certainly hope this isn’t your explanation for the evolutionary process. I, myself, never WAS a fish. Perhaps you know someone who was.

**

“Its’ a love thing! Ooooo baby, it’s a love thing!” What a great song.

**

No you haven’t. Please name something you think you’ve seen for which you’re unaware of the cause and I’m sure someone bright can explain it to you.

**

Yes, and that’s why you’ve chosen to believe in a supreme being. To give your life meaning and purpose. I don’t NEED a cosmic meaning and purpose. I have enough usefulness and fulfillment HERE and NOW.

87

Nietzsche? Is that you? You channelling, Glorfindel?

But seriously - yes. In the absence of God, there is no absolute right and wrong. There are only personal reference frames and individual moral systems. So what?

What is your point?

Do you still not get it?

God exists or does not exist IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER I BELIEVE IN HIM OR NOT. If he does not exist, then that fact is immutable. I do not believe in him. That’s that. The fact that a consequence of no God is the lack of absolute morality is irrelevant. He still doesn’t exist. Wishful thinking won’t change ANYTHING.

I’m sorry that you feel that this makes the world pointless. I, as it happens, don’t agree. But that’s a whole different argument. It doesn’t change the fact that an atheist doesn’t believe in God. And that an atheist doesn’t seek to “replace” God, since there is no “replacement”. Any replacement would just be another God! We don’t believe in supernatural beings. How else can I say it? Dieu est mort. No void, no consternation, just acceptance. It is as it is.

pan

88

Of course the universe has no intrinsic meaning, no absolute right and wrong. As an atheist, I know that the only meaning and morality I can hope to find in the universe is that which intelligent beings create for themselves.

No, there are no eternal consequences to anyone’s actions, Glorfindel. Hitler and St. Francis of Assissi both died into the same fate: oblivion.

But that just makes our Earthly choices that much more important. I’d really like to know why you think it follows naturally from atheism that one would go on a murderous rampage or kill oneself. I could just as easily ask you why you don’t kill yourself or all the Christians you know, to send all to Heaven sooner.

I can only count on a hundred or so years of existence, not an eternity; doesn’t it make sense that I’d want as many of those years as possible, and for them to be as comfortable and happy as I can make them?

89

Says you. Things have the meaning that we assign to them. Just because you assert this does not make it truth.

This is just silly. Of course things matter – seeing that my loved ones are protected and happy. Preventing unnecessary suffering. Seeing that people are treated fairly and justly. Just because, for example, pain is a trait which arose through evolution to teach us to avoid threatening experiences, that does not make pain less meaningful for beings who are capable of experiencing it. To that extent, it matters for me to avoid pain and to do my best to prevent it for the people about whom I care.

Again, simply making this assertion has no bearing on its truth value.

I really think you’re confused somewhat. Just because something is a man-made creation does not preclude it from having meaning. Music and art have meaning, but we made those up.

Sure it does. If I kill someone, then I run the risk of that person’s relatives and loved ones killing me in vengeance. I risk permanent separation from society and its attendant benefits through imprisonment or execution by the authorities. I risk loss of social standing. I risk being trusted by other people. Who cares if there are no “afterlife” consequences? There are consequences right here and now.

90

Oh, we’re going to have fun with this one.

You’ve seen things that science and physics can’t explain, have you? Been to the big city, seen the tall buildings? Contemplated the wonders of the universe? So have I. Do you understand these wonders better because of your religious perspective? I don’t think so. If so, you certainly haven’t given any evidence of it. Personally, I enjoy the mysteries of the universe, and it doesn’t bother me not to have the answers. The answers offered by religion are nice stories, but not answers.

Without God there is no meaning? Just specks, are we? Yes, you could look at it like that. When we die, we are gone. That’s all. Just like Fido–or do you also believe that your faithful dog went to doggie heaven after it died? We don’t live forever. Grown-ups aren’t frightened by that knowledge, and it doesn’t mean that our lives are meaningless.

Yes, we are just specks. Specks with dreams and feelings, so it’s good to respect each other and not hurt each other. We’re all better off if we’re nice to each other. That’s enough of a foundation for morality and ethics. Why is it so scary to admit that as far as we can know, that’s all there is? Are you so egotistical that you can’t accept that you are only a speck in this universe? Basically meaningless, in the eternal cosmic balance of things? So am I. What’s wrong with that?

While we are alive, we experience good and bad. Why not make it as much good as possible?

No right or wrong, is there? Well, that depends. There is no right or wrong as dictated by a grandfatherly figure in the sky. But there is right and wrong. We people have created these things. We have created them by means of language, unintentionally, by my guess. Our language has created our god-concepts. Created gods, in other words.

Language is a very powerful thing, taken as a whole. Sometimes dangerous. I wish people would learn to use it a little more carefully, precisely, and scrupulously. But since language is used so carelessly, sloppily, and unscrupulously, I wish people could learn to recognize when it’s being used to brainwash them, to control their thinking. It’s depressing to see how slowly the species is evolving.

91

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SexyWriter *
[

It’s inconsistent no matter how you read it.

Example please.
You know fish who decided to walk? Wow! I certainly hope this isn’t your explanation for the evolutionary process. I, myself, never WAS a fish. Perhaps you know someone who was.

What were you then? You didn’t just appear did you?

**

No you haven’t. Please name something you think you’ve seen for which you’re unaware of the cause and I’m sure someone bright can explain it to you.

Explain, or find the bright person to explain, how a man who was so full of cancer growths, and big ones at that, was prayed over and healed. The Doctors had told the loved ones that this elderly gentleman had a few hours at best left. The man was in the ICU and they had pumped him full of pain-killers to make his transition easier.
The Elder’s from his Church came at his wife’s request and prayed over him. When the man was still alive the next morning the doctors again x-rayed him and could find no trace of the cancer growths. The hospital then did a series of blood test, etc and could find no trace of cancer in his body period. The gentleman went on to live for another 20 years and died of old age at the age of 99 and 1/2.

This is one of many. I could go on…

92

Okay andros, I’m no philosopher but here goes…

The OP originally asked what atheists could offer others (say Christians) as an alternative belief system, to replace their current belief in God etc. etc.

Many self-declared atheists in this thread then appeared to respond by saying that they don’t offer anything as an alternative. That puzzled me greatly because surely atheists believe something, even if it’s that God doesn’t exist! My point is that not believing in God is thus a part of your set of beliefs or your belief system.

For example, I believe that God created the heavens and the earth, I believe in the Holy Trinity, I believe that we are all sinful by nature and that we are thus all dead in the spiritual sense, I believe that we need the salvation of Jesus Christ and that with it comes eternal life. I believe lots of other things too but I don’t want to bore you with them here and now (unless prompted :)).

I understand that atheists believe that there is no God. It appears from reading these threads that some atheists believe that Christains are stupid, deluded, conned… It appears that many atheists believe that happiness is better achieved without a God. Some atheists argue that we are all little more than a biological accident and not the work of a creator.

Remember, I was a non-Christain for a long time (although in fairness, I’m not sure that I would claim to have been an atheist) and I looked at Christians and Christainity from a non-believers perspective… I had a belief system then… I have a Christian one now because it makes more sense to me!

Surely, whatever an atheist’s ‘belief system’ is, is based upon the collection of beliefs that they hold true, are committed to and act upon. The ‘belief system’ is what drives what you think, how you think, what you do and how you do it. Perhaps, more importantly, it answers the why question. It is the fundamental framework within which you operate, make decisions, deal with issues. It’s how you decide okay/not okay for yourself. As a non-believer, I still had a framework for this (at least I thought I did).

Several posters have made the reasonable point that they make theses choices and decisions without the need for God and the bible as a reference point. Fine, I understand that. So what is the reference point or benchmark that is being used?

I think the OP was asking, what would an atheist offer as a better alternative.

I know that it’s easy to say that you couldn’t careless what I believe… or that I should go ahead and believe anything that I like… several posters have done that already. However, this is a debate :eek: so such responses kinda kill things dead.

How does that compare with your thoughts andros?

93

Really? Do you have any evidence for that claim? Or are we expected to just believe your story that it happened exactly like that?

I’m not saying that you’re intentionally lying but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the facts of the case were not as you interpreted them. I’d like to see some actual documented evidence.

If this guy was as you claimed then the medical staff would have been shocked. Furthermore they would have records. This case would certainly have made the news. You’re talking about a miracle here. I’d like to see a cite.

pan

94

Sorry - that was of course directed to Glorfindel about his/her claim of a medical miracle.

pan

95

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Glorfindel_31 *
**

[QUOTE]

Example please.**/

[QUOTE]

Old Testament: Eye for an eye.
New Testament: Turn the other cheek.

**

[QUOTE]
What were you then? You didn’t just appear did you?**/

[QUOTE]

Umm…no. You do know about sexual reproduction, right? I didnt’ start out as a FISH, I started out as two cells (egg and sperm) combining. Those, of course, were HUMAN cells, not fish cells. I then grew into a multi-celled blastula (also human), then a human fetus, and finally, a human baby. Get it? I was never a fish.

**

This is called spontaneous remission. It occurs occasionally. It occurs in those who are prayed for, and those who are not. It happens to devout Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, and Jews. There is no connection between prayer and spontaneous remission. An oncologist friend of mine does tell me, however, that spontaneous remission is more likely to occur with certain types of cancers.

I was wrong here, of course. Science can’t fully explain this as far as I know. Though, there are theories. It’s certainly not something that only happened to someone YOU know because god decided to spare him. It happens to all kinds of people in all kinds of situations.

96

Actually, it’s NOT a miracle. Though, I’m sure it seems to be one to those involved who are tremendously relieved and grateful for this occurance. It’s actually FAIRLY common.

See these links for more and for biological explanations of why this might happen.

http://www.garynull.com/Documents/AgingHealthfully/RemissionOfCancer.htm

http://www.karlloren.com/biopsy/p36.htm

http://hometown.aol.com/WDrwoeppel/spontan_e.htm

97

Um, yes. Your question being? Jesus came to fulfill the OT scriptures and changed the rules because of the new salvation that was offered. That’s why it is to be taken as a whole not in parts. I must admit that a lot of people tend to do just that, one verse from one chapter in one book.

I get the human reproductive thing… :slight_smile:
But since humans weren’t created by God humans came from…
you’re ancestry stretches back to single-celled organisms.
So, yes you came from something else.
Not to linger on this point as it is off topic a bit from the original question. I was simply pointing out that if you evolved from some single-celled thing and eventually became what you are today then there is nothing to truely point out what is right from wrong other than yourself.

Ah, spontaneous remission. Yes that must be it…(dripping with well meaning sarcasm). As to the other post requesting “documented proof”. I would love to be able to show the actual x-rays, blood tests, etc. But I believe Hospital patient records are confidential? I’ll look into it though.
“Miracle” was the word the attending Doctor used. The panel of cancer specialists did say that the only way it could be explained was by spontaneous remission but it wasn’t really applicable to whatever kind of cancer the patient had.

{Fixed code. It will work our much better if you refrain from nesting quotes unless strictly neccesary for clarity, and make sure the “/” is inside the [****quote] code. Preview if you’re not sure you’ve got it right --Gaudere}

[Edited by Gaudere on 07-11-2001 at 12:06 PM]

98

I wouldn’t say I am atheist, but I am definitely not any religion that I have ever heard of. I believe in a god, but not white the bearded, heavenly god of Christianity. I believe that there is something bigger than we are. I don’t know what it is, but whatever it is was here before us and created the universe. That’s it. Period. No sins or confessions or anything. God created us and doesn’t do anything beyond that. I don’t worship god because god may not even know that itself exists. I just believe in it as something that was here before there was anything…maybe a force, maybe a chemical, but something that we can never explain or see or know…until we die. I don’t know about an after life, but maybe sort of in line with the Buddhists, more of an absorption into All, but I think it will be a very pleasant experience because everything will be revealed to you. How everything was created, whats on the other side of the universes edge, how our galaxy fit in to the universe, how earth fit in to our galaxy, and how we fit in on earth…a total understanding of everything that you may or may not even be councious of.
What I do not believe in is religion. Look at the Muslims and the Jews, fighting for thousands of years, and I guarantee that neither of the religions thinks that it is OK to go around killing people. Religion causes problems more than it solves them. Beliefs are personal, once you start brainwashing people to believe things that they didn’t think of on their own mob mentality can lead them to do things they normally would not have done. I was raised without religion, and I believe I am one of the most moral people I know. I am not saying I am perfect, but you don’t need religion to have morals…

99

I agree with some of what you’ve said. There are a lot of people that do things in the name of “God” that they really can’t back up.
There was some philosopher that said - “When we come up against something we perceive as evil, we run the risk of becoming evil to fight it.”
Being human we all make mistakes, whether in the name of “God” or not.

100

Glorfindel_31 wrote:

He went from having tumors all over his body, to no traces of cancer, in less than 24 hours?

Riiiiiiiiight.

I’ll bet that you:[LIST=A][li]don’t know the patient’s name,[/li][li]don’t know the name of the attending physician,[/li][li]don’t know of any newspapers that carried this story at the time it happened,[/li][li]can’t come up with one citation of this case anywhere in the medical literature, and[/li]were actually told about this case by your pastor or a religious acquaintance of yours, and believed it immediately without question.[/LIST]