“I don’t believe in gravity,” said the drug addict, right before he jumped and plunged to his death.
Whether you believe in gravity or not, it’s there. Doing things. Making things behave in certain ways. Believing in it doesn’t make a bit of difference one way or the other.
If you believe in God, good for you. If you worship him, more power to ya. If you choose not to, here’s lookin’ at you, kid. Whatever’s going on in the universe will keep going on, no matter what. It doesn’t rely on your believing in it.
Having said that, I don’t believe in God. I believe in myself. That I have a great deal of power to change my situation here on Earth to be as close to perfect as I would like to be. That what I should do with my power is to make my life how I want it to be. Of course I may be wrong (but you might be too.)
Not to be snippy, but IMO it’s no more of an unsubstantiated allegation than your original assumptions that all atheists were former worshippers who left the church/synagogue/mosque/temple out of spite, or there’s some sort of “spiritual void” that must be filled.
Besides, it’s a safe bet that you were indoctrinated into Christianity at a young age. Consider:
[ul]
[li]Did your parents tell you that Christmas was a celebration of Jesus’ birth? Or did they say it was a pagan holiday to celebrate the winter solstice?[/li][li]Did your parents tell you that Easter was in rememberance of Jesus’ death and resurrection? Or did they mention that it was originally a pagan fertility celebration?[/li][li]Did you have any relatives who held elaborate church weddings?[/li][li]When a relative die, was there a funeral service where a priest/minister/holy person beseeched God to bless the dead person and accept his/her soul into Heaven?[/li][li]Were there Bibles and/or crucifixes in your home?[/li][li]Were you baptised? Or did you ever attend a baptism?[/li][li]Did you ever have a metaphysical/philosophical question dismissed with an expression like “God works in mysterious ways” or “It is God’s will”?[/li][/ul]
I suspect you were already predisposed, and that a hard sell wasn’t needed.
gah the tennis match just turned into “getting sucked into a singularity”
I’m glad you got the point. You’ve just basically summed up one of the answering viewpoints to the OP - you got it EXACTLY right. “There is nothing to truley(sic) point out what is right from wrong other than myself.”, though I really liked the way Andros put it:
This may very well be the crux of the whole atheist/religious difference, because trying to explain to a religious person WHY THIS ISN’T AN ISSUE to an atheist is like trying to describe blue to someone who’s been blind since birth. The converse is likely true: that you cannot explain to me why it is important that right from wrong be determined by something “greater” than myself. A facet I find interesting is our two viewpoints trump each other: you, a religious person, can look an atheist and say “it doesn’t matter, because God truly decides what’s right and wrong” and I can look at the Religious and say “it doesn’t matter, because their sense of right and wrong is really an arbitrary human construct that has no meaning outside what we choose to assign it”.
As for the cancer debate:
Ah, divine intervention. Yes that must be it…
(dripping with well meaning sarcasm). (squared :))
Atheism does not at ALL preclude amazing and seeming wonderous things from happening. All it does is preclude any reason (in the “grand scheme” sense of the word) for it happening.
I postulate: when one asks “Why”, the religious answer “because”, and the atheists answer “why not?”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by tracer *
He went from having tumors all over his body, to no traces of cancer, in less than 24 hours?
Riiiiiiiiight.
I’ll bet that you:[LIST=A][li]don’t know the patient’s name,[/li][li]don’t know the name of the attending physician,[/li][li]don’t know of any newspapers that carried this story at the time it happened,[/li][li]can’t come up with one citation of this case anywhere in the medical literature, and[/li][li]were actually told about this case by your pastor or a religious acquaintance of yours, and believed it immediately without question.[/LIST] **[/li][/QUOTE]
A) Patient was my Grandfather
B) You’re right about that, can’t remember the name but
I could ask the family and one them would remember it, I’m sure.
C) It was not published in anything that I’m aware of.
D) A ciatation? Have to plead ignorrant on that one. Example please.
E) See ‘A)’. I was in attendance not told this by someone
else.
To explain further, like I said in the other post, the Doctors “ruled” it somethiing along the lines of spontaneous remission. I am thinking this is published already, hence no need to do so again.
It seems to me that the question Glorfindel is tossing about is one of morality and epistemology. I cannot determine the real nature of his inquiry, though… perhaps that’s because it’s almost three in the morning and I should’ve gone to bed ages ago. Is Glorfindel wondering how non-Christians can rigorously defend their moral statements, is he wondering how non-Christians decide what is moral and what isn’t, or is he making some sort of accusation that rejecting the Christian God will inevitably lead to amorality?
Here’s a web site that should answer some of these questions:
I did a moral philosophy course back in university, and would just like to mention that Glorfindel and maybe a few other posters in this thread could do well to do a bit of reading on the subject. It’s not nearly so simple a case as “God exists- we know right from wrong; God doesn’t exist- let’s all party like Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome”. Moral philosophies have been put foreward by theists and atheists alike.
Go. Read. Let’s all be nicer to one another and try to wear more hats.
So there is no right and wrong. A murderer, rapist, theif, etc isn’t actually doing anything wrong they are just breaking the “law of the land”…Got it now.
No, they’ve done something wrong. And we (atheists, that is) know it – they have violated a morality which humanity has been working on, with and without reference to a deity, since we achieved sentience.
We know that that serial killer you worship was wrong when he had a temper tantrum and offed all those Egyptian babies, too. So let me turn the issue around. Would you continute to worship him if you didn’t think that doing so would make him be nicer to you when you die? Would you abandon your morality if he came down right now and said it doesn’t matter to him?
Back when slavery was common in the US, most people felt that it was not only allowed but mandated by the Bible. (“Slaves obey your masters,” and all that.) If you read the diary of Mary Chestnut, a Southern lady who lived during the Civil War, you’ll find that she struggled with this–the Bible said that slavery was OK and mandated by God, but she knew in her heart that it was wrong.
Where did her belief that slavery was wrong come from if not from God? Could it be that she had an innate sense of right and wrong that was usually reinforced by the Bible, but was contradicted in this case?
Anyway, you won’t find many people who believe slavery is Biblically mandated these days. I stopped going to my church back home when the preacher said he was “glad to belong to a church that doesn’t change its mind about the word of God,” when it was the Southern Baptists who promoted the pro-slavery interpretation. (It’s why they split from the rest of the Baptists, IIRC.)
No, they’ve done something wrong. And we (atheists, that is) know it – they have violated a morality which humanity has been working on, with and without reference to a deity, since we achieved sentience.
Ok, I htought that in some of the comments on the thread that the atheists agreed that there was no “universal right and wrong”. The morality was just thought up by others.
Violating that, in the cosmic scheme of htings, isn’t wrong.
Because there is no wrong. Just breaking a law is all.
We know that that serial killer you worship was wrong when he had a temper tantrum and offed all those Egyptian babies, too.
Huh? “offed the Egyptian babies”? Are you talking about what happened with Moses in Egypt?
So let me turn the issue around. Would you continute to worship him if you didn’t think that doing so would make him be nicer to you when you die? Would you abandon your morality if he came down right now and said it doesn’t matter to him?
Would I continue to worship God if I thought that he wouldn’t be nicer to me when I died? Guess I don’t understand the question.
Yes slavery is wrong. This is something that has absolutely been perverted. If you study the Hebrew and Greek the term for “servant”, “slave”, “worker”, or the modern day equivolent “employee” is a lot different than the sickening use of slaves in the more modern times.
Jesus talked of this a lot during his ministry.
Even in the Old Testament the chosen people were not refered to much as the “slaves” of the egyptians, their lives were made bitter by “hard bondage”. What existed in the U.S. at the time of the Civil War was “hard bondage”.
The Southern Baptists you speak keep what I call a “Ben Franklin Bible”. Good 'ol Ben blacked out the parts of the scriptures he didn’t like or want to believe.
No. Morality isn’t “just thought up” like the plot for this week’s Spin City. It is agonized over, it is communicated down through the ages, it evolves, it gets (mostly) better. Yes, it’s a human construct, but it is part of what defines us as human, too.
Yeah. I’m wondering how you can worship a war criminal and still claim that it is atheists who have the problem with morals.
Let me reword. Let’s suppose that God, the God of the New Testament, exists, and that He came to Earth tomorrow. And He said, “Just as I replaced the Old Testament covenant with the Jews with the New Testament covenant with everybody, today I replace the new covenant with a New, Improved[sup]TM[/sup] Covenant. I love you all, and you will go to heaven no matter what you do. I don’t think you ought to worry about right and wrong. Just as I once repealed the prohibition on wearing two kinds of cloth, I now repeal the prohibition against murder and everything else.”
You are correct - it has been stated that there is no “universal right and wrong.” Morality is a human construct. Without this human-constructed morality, god or no god, civilization would not be possible.
You are also correct that in the cosmic scheme of things, violating this morality means nothing. Adhering to it means nothing, either. This is because the cosmos, to anthropomorphisize, doesn’t give two hoots about what happens on this little blue orb. And we don’t really care what the “cosmos” thinks anyway, because it is each other that we must answer to when we violate this code, not some greater being, and not “the cosmos.”
But there is a significant difference between “law” and “morality”. The laws do not dictate morality - they are a basis for conduct within civilized society. They let everyone know what acts are likely to receive punishment, and what that punishment is likely to be. These acts which are likely to result in punishment may be defined by morals, but this is by no means necessarily the case (littering, for example, is a largely amoral act, but is “against the law” nonetheless).
Gee, Glorfindel, suddenly you are just clueless when the questions get a little tougher, arencha?
Let me rephrase and perhaps you will “understand” the question a bit better:
A blinding shaft of light blazes through the ceiling, a heavenly chorus of angels kicks in with a deafening round of Hallelujahs and God rides the shaft of light right into your bedroom. He says “Glor ol’ buddy… stop worrying! You have it all wrong… your behavior doesn’t make the tiniest bit of difference. None. Zip. Zero. remember, the Bible was written by human beings with free will, and let me tell you, they got it all wrong. There is no way to ensure you are getting into heaven. None. It’s completely arbitrary, a celestial lottery. Hitler and Pol Pot are in Heaven and Mother Theresa didn’t make it. Entirely random. So do what you want, I really don’t care, and it won’t affect what happens to you afterwards anyway.” And with that, He leaves.
Okay. Now. Having learned that your actions and beliefs will have no bearing on your afterlife experience and that God couldn’t possibly care less how you behave, do you immediately go on a killing and raping spree? Do you start lying, cheating and stealing? If not, why not?
I would like to redirect your attention to what 23skidoo said:
To which I would add–the laws of gravity exist whether you know of them or not; whether you conceptualize them as having been authored by a translucent winged Angel of Physics or not; and regardless of whether you conceptualize the person who ignores these laws and falls painfully as a “sinner who was justly punished for violating the laws” or instead as an ignorant or oblivious person who did not act the way a prudent person aware of the laws would act.
We don’t need the Divine Authority of God to validate and authenticate laws such as “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” and “love your neighbors; forgive them their trespasses; to the one that would take your coat, offer your cloak as well” and so on. If they are truly laws of God, then by definition that means a prudent person aware of the underlying principles of human social organization, emotional health, and societal communications and so on will behave in this fashion, and that only fools of the same sort as those who step off bridges to their death would do otherwise.
What we do need is a more widespread understanding of these moral codes as expressions of inviolable natural laws and common sense rather than as moral obligations against which the so-called “evildoer” is often conceptualized as someone who is “GETTING AWAY WITH” doing evil as if it is actually a lot of fun and individually rewarding and satisfying (or would be if there were not a vengeful Supreme Being watchign and getting rather pissed off about it).
Sorry Manhattan, didn’t know when you’d be back and I just had to see what glor had to say about this. Now that we’ve both rephrased it in different ways, I look forward to the answer.
No. Morality isn’t “just thought up” like the plot for this week’s Spin City. It is agonized over, it is communicated down through the ages, it evolves, it gets (mostly) better. Yes, it’s a human construct, but it is part of what defines us as human, too.
“construct”, “agonized over”. Doesn’t that mean that humans were thinking about it, hence it was thought up.
I don’t argue that it didn’t take time. What I’m saying is that fundamentally there is still no wrong or right for that matter, just what “we do” as humans. Just because humans make a law that they feel is for the common good of the tribe doesn’t make something then wrong. Just that it goes against what the majority consider to be contrary to the “norm” established by trial and error.
Yeah. I’m wondering how you can worship a war criminal and still claim that it is atheists who have the problem with morals.
Missing the point still. If you’re talking about what happened in Egypt when Moses was trying to free His people, read it again. Those folks were warned several times and even what happened at the end was the Pharoahs doing. He was warned yet again, but still didn’t listen. As I recall his advisors came up with other explainations as to the curses that were coming against them.
**
[/QUOTE]
Let me reword. Let’s suppose that God, the God of the New Testament, exists, and that He came to Earth tomorrow. And He said, “Just as I replaced the Old Testament covenant with the Jews with the New Testament covenant with everybody, today I replace the new covenant with a New, Improved[sup]TM[/sup] Covenant. I love you all, and you will go to heaven no matter what you do. I don’t think you ought to worry about right and wrong. Just as I once repealed the prohibition on wearing two kinds of cloth, I now repeal the prohibition against murder and everything else.”
Would you become a rapist/thief/murderer? **
[/QUOTE]
Interesting question. But aren’t most of the “if” questions really the best ones! What would I do? If I wasn’t going to be held accountable for my actions and further, nothing I did would be held against me?! Plus I get to spend eternity in Heaven with God in a perfect paradise!..whew…have to think on that one!
Incorrect. Just because morality is not established by Allah makes it no less valid.
Again incorrect. There is wrong. There is no God.
Er, yeah. All those first-born kids? Ya know, thoses evil sinner Egyptians who cursed god inbetween feedings and diaper changes?
Oh please. Forced servitude for life is not slavery? Shall we start working through the Old Testament now? I assure you, most of us here, Christians and non-Christians alike, know the Bible very well.
Oh please. Forced servitude for life is not slavery? Shall we start working through the Old Testament now? I assure you, most of us here, Christians and non-Christians alike, know the Bible very well.
**
[/QUOTE]
“forced servitude” would certainly be slavery. Know the Bible very well? Sorry, didn’t know you were versed in acient Hebrew and Greek. Appologies.
Yes, there was lots of “forced servitude” in the Bible, especially in the begining. But again, Jesus came to fulfill the Old Testament and set forth the way we were to act toward one another. Take the Old Testament by itself and leave out the New and sure, it says you can sell your sister into slavery if you want. Can’t find Jesus talking about it though…nope, can’t find that anywhere.
