A question for pro-abortion people

First, thanks to those who defended my stance on this issue. Puddleglum, I have two comments: First, I originally objected, in general terms, to your categorization of people into two categories: those who share your anti-abortion stance without any cavil, and those who, not agreeing in every particular with you, you designated as “pro-abortion.” I used my own stance, which is nuanced from yours as regards the morality of some abortions, and which stands in opposition to making abortion illegal as an overall concept. I gave you my moral grounds for holding that stance.

Since you chose to completely disregard my point, I then argued with yours as, apparently bigotedly, one of imposing your view of morality on others through the law. You quite validly rejoined that we do indeed impose certain moral stadards on each other through the laws. I do concede the truth of what you say.

Again, you draw a black-and-white scene. Assume I go into a restaurant and order Chicken Parmagiana. The waiter brings to me a scrambled egg with a dollop of pasta sauce and some grated cheese on top of it. I think I would be justified in complaining about this, even though that egg, if permitted to hatch, would have produced a chicken whose meat would have satisfactorily filled my order.

By your definition, the moment fertilization of an ovum occurs, a new human being comes into existence. This is indeed the stance held by many conservative Protestants, the Catholic Church as an institution, and many others of differing or no religion. It is, however, not the sole possible stance other than your antithesis that the embryo is “just a bunch of tissue in the mother.” I would suggest to you that there might be other legitimate positions one might ethically hold, such as Thomas Aquinas’s view that the fetus becomes “ensouled” and in consequence a person at “the time of quickening” – when the unborn child begins to make motions of its own in the womb, or my own position that prior to viability, the fetus has the potential for personhood but has not yet become an independent person. Compare the chicken/egg analogy above.

Or contemplate the following:

A young woman is the sole child of her deceased mother and her bedfast father, who requires 24/7 care, and who does not have insurance paying for nursing home or in-home care. I think that you and I would agree that her proper moral duty is to provide the care without which her father would die, but that a judge would be completely out of line in ordering her to do so. It must be her uncompelled choice to provide him that care.

Notice that we have not deprived the father of personhood, but have placed him in a position where he requires what deprives his daughter of her freedom to live her normal life.

I see this as a direct analogy to my stance on abortion. She is morally obligated to give another the care he requires to live, but by her own decision, not by compulsion from another.

Finally, I would suggest to you that the parallels to murder and theft work only on the acceptance of your view that the pre-viable fetus is a full-fledged human being with all appurtenant rights. Our nation’s stance seems to be tacitly defined as: You have the freedom to do what you wish, except when what you wish to do deprives another of the same freedom. (Other exceptions, such as the subjection of the child to the parent’s good judgment, etc., will come into play, but the general principle holds.)

Jodi’s point is quite valid: You or I or anyone else has the right, beyond the principle of equality of freedom defined above, to dictate what one is morally obliged to do.

Generally, when people put a smilies in their posts, it means they are kidding. In this case, though, I do believe he’s serious.

I figure it’s better to abort a female baby than to have that baby born into a family that doesn’t want her, where she might be neglected or mal-treated, or generally not cared for as well as a boy would have been.

But it isn’t descriptive at all. I’m in favor of letting women choose whether or not to have an abortion. I am, however, not pro-abortion, because I do not feel that they should necessarily choose abortion over birth. Your sort of logic is typical of some of the more unpleasant movements in history, I’m afraid. Look, for example, to recent cases in which people who opposed school prayer were accused of being Satanists. Or look to the people who call others homosexuals simply because they support gay rights. I could go on, but any intelligent person can come up with a dozen examples.

Let me put it this way, puddleglum. There are some pro-choice folks here who do not feel that “pro-abortion” is accurate, and find your use of the term to be provocatory. You may, if you wish, choose to go ahead and provoke us anyway. But bear in mind that we can apply the same logic to your own positions. Reasonable intelligent people like ourselves have no need of euphemism, no? Are you really willing to sign away your right to ask that people not describe your positions with terms which you find provocatory? I, for one, would much prefer that you chose to keep the conversation civil.

-Ben

Generally, when people put a smilies in their posts, it means they are kidding. In this case, though, I do believe he’s serious. **
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Yeah, like I’m Hannibal Lector’s illegitimate child.:rolleyes:

And aren’t you glad he didn’t abort you?

::d&r::

What? Am I supposed to oppose to abortion because I wasn’t aborted myself? That doesn’t follow logically. Just because I wouldn’t be here if I’d been aborted doesn’t necessarily mean that all abortions are bad—or that it wouldn’t have been morally correct and just for my parents to have had me aborted. The sins (or lack of sins) of the fathers to pass onto the sons.

I have never met someone who is pro-abortion. I know a lot of pro-choice people though. “Yay, let’s go get an abortion.”, I think the choice is not mine, and I don’t think that we should actually ask someone what they are getting an abortion for. It’s none of my or your business. Yes I think a foetus is a life. If you need to justify killing your baby by saying it’s not a life then go ahead. I think it’s murder and I have no problem with it. Human life really isn’t that precious.

Erek