delphica, to be completely honest, I don’t know what the debate is exactly either. I started it as one thing, but the more discussion we’ve had, the more the ideas have shifted and that’s fine with me.
Basically, I wanted to see what it takes to change the meaning of a symbol. Religious, social, whatever. And whoever has the symbol and uses the symbol obviously doesn’t think that they’re doing it for “evil” purposes, just for their own purposes. Hitler and the swastika, for one example.
The confederate flag for another. Most people know what it symbolizes and they consider it to be a bad thing. But there are those few out there who see it as a legitimate symbol of their historical past. But the idea of what the confederate flag symbolizes has changed over time, which is why it’s being yanked off state flags right and left.
The black and pink triangle were used by Hitler? Interesting, I didn’t know that.
Cross symbolism is a relatively grave subject which I don’t quite feel comfortable enough to wade into. Those who are further interested should read the Dream of the Rood, a medieval Anglo-Saxon poem in which the narrator relates a vision he saw of the True Cross. It is, to say the least, fascinating. Even riveting, pun intended.
You may find it in Anglo-Saxon here, or a version in modern English verse here. I would translate it for the boards myself, but Killings’ verse is better than anything I could come up with.
It’s only 155 lines, and really worth the time of anyone who is interested in these matters.
I am sorry we hurt you. Yes I am a practicing Seventh Day Adventist. Do you remember learning about the shaking, what this means is that right now not all people in church are there because they love Christ. They are there because they love the status that being a Christian gives them.
This means that these people are left in the church for now so that those who love Christ are not accidentally removed (chased) from the church through the controvesy that removing these hypocrites would cause. I am not talking about just Adventist but all Christian churches. Surely you met some good people who acted as Christ wants us to act. (you know, love thy neighbor as thyself). What it seems you were doing was concentrating on the tares or in other words those who are just warming a pew rather than concentrating on Christ which is the real reason to be in Church. It also seems that the members of the church you attended did not take the time to make sure that you felt welcomed and loved.
I wish you could attend the congregations I have been to. It is what the Adventists call a celebration church. Our emphasis is on praising Christ. They are a loving group. Sabbath is not for sleeping but rather as a day to do the work of Jesus. We have groups that visit rest homes, groups that visit the sick, groups that pray, actually Sabbath hours are alot of times very busy. We also give food and clothing to the needy every Wednesday (alternating between food one Wed and clothing the next). Now don’t get me wrong, are we perfect, no. Are we trying to live a Christian life, yes.
As to the op, The reason there is only a cross is to emphasize Christ’s resurrection. Sure He died on the cross but if it had ended there he would have just been another one of the multitude to have died in that manner, but it doesn’t end there. He rose from the dead. What I think we as modern man miss is just how horrific this death was. The lengths that our Lord went to for us is something that I, in my comfortable environment has a hard time comprehending.
The swastika is widely used in india by both buddhists and hindus. When i was traveling through india the swastika was painted on houses… walls, temples… you name it. I forget it’s exact meaning. Also the Nazi swastika isn’t the same as one has it’s “spokes” (for lack of a better term) going clockwise and the other, counter clockwise.
If you live in any city with Hindu or Buddhist temples ask too look around (or sometimes in museums) many sculptures made before WWII will contain a swastiKa (and many to this day will still be made with it.
[a href=http://members.nbci.com/Ciarin/swastika.htm]Here is an excellent link about the swastika.[/a]
The biggest reason IMHO, that the cross was changed from a symbol of a relatively bad thing into a symbol of a good thing is that there was something really good that happened involving the cross to change its image. If Christ hadn’t died on the cross and then risen 3 days later, I highly doubt that people would be wearing the symbol around their necks or displaying them in their homes etc.
The swastika on the other hand, was changed from a good thing (luck) to a bad thing (a symbol of nazism). I personally believe that the only way that a lot of people will accept the swastika (in the western part of the world anyway) is if something is if something really good happens, and the sastika is a symbol/involved in some way with that good thing.
IMO, it probably has more to do with the metaphor of a nexus or crossing: the crux of an issue is where all the strands of the issue meet, just as four beams meet at the center of a cross.
south333
Considering that there isn’t any substantial evidence that that happened, I don’t think that your assumption is valid.
My assumption is not so much based on fact, but based on the beliefs of many people around the world and what was written in the new testament. I am NOT saying that it is fact, it is hearsay. The point that I was trying to make is that many Christians wear the cross to symbolize the crucifixion and the resurrection. Until this instance, the cross was a way that the Romans executed people (and they still did after Jesus was executed).
OTOH, there are far more people who think of the swastika as the nazi symbol instead of a symbol of luck etc. THAT IMHO, is why more people seem to have a problem with the swastika than with the cross.
That was the point I was trying to make in my first post. I appologize if I was unclear.
Why not now? For me, the swastika has almost entirely positive connotations, because there is a very strong Asian influence where I live. In the most practical sense, a swastika posted outside a restaurant or on a package means “Suitable for Vegetarians.” Half of the products in my cupboards have swastikas on them, because there are two markets for vegetarian food: The hippie demographic, where the quality is low and the price is high, and the Buddhist demographic, where the reverse is true. I live in Vancouver, Canada.
Regarding the original post, it’s interesting to trace the iconography of the cross. It was not originally a symbol of the crucifixion at all. (In fact, the Romans didn’t employ a cross-bar but used a single pole.)
The evolution of the letter X is very interesting: The Phoenicians used used a graph which resembled a T with 3 horizontal lines, called samekh which means fish. The greeks adapted the Phoenician alphabet to their own usage, and samekh morphed into Chi (which we would recognize as an X) over time. The Estrucans adapted the greek alphabet to suit their language, rendering it “cursively” with one side closed: <>< The Romans copied THAT, but since they preferred angularity, it became simply X again.
There is a phonetic connection, and often an idiogrammatical connection to the concept “fish”. As Christianity spread, these were all used as christian symbols. The symbol of a cross is relatively new.
Lenny Bruce pointed out (pretty astutely) that it seems pretty likely that in the event of a Second Coming, probably the LAST thing that Jesus would want to see would be crosses plastered everywhere. (And also that if Christ showed up in modern times, his future followers would probably have little electric-chair pendants. Why not?)
You mentioned that most people don’t wear a crucifix, but just a cross, Ender. This is generally true of Protestants; Catholics frequently do use the crucifix as a symbol of their beliefs, in jewelry and elsewhere. Although the historical reasons for Protestants prefering the empty cross probably has more to do with a reluctance to display images of God, the interpretation I have most often heard from Protestants themselves is that the emptiness of the cross makes it clear that Jesus is no longer hanging there, but is risen and has ascended into heaven. IOW, the cross is at least as much a symbol of the resurection as it is of the passion (suffering).