Can the swastika be reclaimed?

Great Debates
1

This post by jsgoddess from the Pit thread about the symbolism of 88 made me decide to finally start this thread.

This idea has been bouncing around my head since January, but I haven’t had the time to devote a thread to it until now.

But it has now been over sixty years since the National Socialist German Workers Party (better known as those goat-felching Nazi santorums) government fell, which only held power for twelve years and existed as an organization for only 25 years. While this image (scroll down if necessary) is a lost cause and should serve as a reminder of their hate and evil, can we have all the rest back?

A few reasons I would like to see this happen. First, the symbol dates back to the dawn of the Indus and Ganges civilizations and has been used as a religious symbol by Hindus and other Eastern religions since circa 500 BC. It had become fairly common in the west as a symbol of good luck or good fortune until it was misappropriated by the Nazis. Second, by returning the swastika to its rightful owners, i.e. humanity, it lessens the impact of its history. Third, reclaiming the swatiska would lessen its power as a current hate symbol. Rather than tremble in fear, or rise in anger, embrace it for the symbol of peace and prosperity it originally was.

If not now, how soon? I think this will become a greater issue soon as India continues to play a larger role on the global stage. And I would hope that 1 billion+ desis would rate higher than long-dead goat-felchers and their pitiful scions.

And even as part of a greater debate, why allow any hate group claim any symbols or codes? Why succumb to the wannabe dictatorship of the paranoid and ignorant? I would love to see every hate symbol turned into a logo. When seeing a pair of lightning bolts, I would rather think of the new Zeus convertible than stormtroopers - and thanks to Lucas, that word has become more synonymous with a bunch of clones in white body armor (that really doesn’t seem to serve any purpose) who can’t shoot straight than with any German soldiers from WWII.

My only request is that this stay in Great Debates, and not descend into the Pit.
AP
(And in regards to 88, the only significance that number ever had was that it was the year I would have graduated high school, if I had graduated high school, but I didn’t, but I still call myself class of '88. I still suspect myself of being a closet fascist sometimes though. Usually when I don’t have enough coffee or cigarettes.)

2

It’s already in common, daily use in India. Let me link to one of my favorite pictures…if you scroll down to about the sixth row on the right…

http://web.mac.com/jenniferrobot/iWeb/jeninindia/Kerala.html

you get to “Swastik Spices, Jewtown, Kochi”.

3

I think it can be reclaimed, but I worry a little bit. Not about the symbol because it’s a shame that a culture had a symbol stolen from them and then besmirched. But I do worry a little about “returning the swastika to its rightful owners, i.e. humanity, it lessens the impact of its history.”

I don’t really want to lessen the impact of Nazism on the world’s conscience. I don’t know exactly how you meant that line, but while part of me would love to say, “Ha ha, Nazi scum, no one even remembers you!” the rest of me wants them to remain a powerful reminder of what “just following orders” or “us versus them” can mean.

Good idea for a debate.

4

We have a Native American exhibit in the museum in which I work. One of the artifacts is a copper swastika, and I’ve always gotten so many questions about it that I added an explanation of it to the tours I give of the area.

No, I don’t think that American culture would ever be able to seperate that symbol from the Nazi Party. It’s so deeply engrained in us that even some small children recognize it: “Doesn’t that symbol mean evil?”

5

IIRC, one of the larger Hindu temples here in Pittsburgh has a large swastika at the top of the building.

6

Give it 500 years or so and it’ll be all the rage again.

OK, maybe a thousand.

It’s gonna take a while to get over. As it should.

7

I questioned my idea there myself. I think the point I want to make it that while the Nazi swastika should be remembered as warning to ourselves of how nasty we can be to one another, that is the only power I want to have. Let it be remembered as mark of shame, not hate. Let it be remembered as a symbol of our past, similar to how the cross is revered by Christians, though no one wants to restore crucifixions as an actual punishment. (Not the best analogy, but I hope my meaning is clear.) If the Nazi Party wants to march down Main Street, I want them greeted with either pity or laughter at their folly, but not fear.
All other swastikas should be fair game again. I know they are still common in India. I hope they become common everywhere else also, as much as the cross or crescent or yin-yang.
Qadgop, I hope it does not take that long, because I don’t want the Nazis to have that much power for that long. My intent is that one way to destroy hate is to take away their weapons.

8

There’s a great short story called “Origin Story” by Dwight Decker.

In this story a man gets betrayed by his partner and left for dead. He is rescued by an agent of ancient powers and offered the chance to be a superhero.

“Captain Swastika.”

The protagonist is taken aback, to say the least.

9

IIRC, isn’t the Nazi swastika facing the opposite way of most swastikas used by other groups?

10

Cecil lays it on the line about the misunderstood fylfot/hakenkreuz/swastika/sauvastika/that thing there, 1987

11

Wasn’t there a synagogue built in New England with a swastika pattern in the floor tile?

12

It’s still in common use in Japan today as a Buddhist symbol.

In fact, a troupe of folk dancers traveling to Germany to perform at the World Cup agreed to give their outfits a makeover to remove the swastikas.

Story with picture of the unaltered outfits (may require free registration):
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20060521a3.html

13

As Cecil’s collumn points out, many groups have used a very similar looking symbol. It’s most likely that the Nazi’s took their lead from a Teutonic rune, which appeared in both directions with it’s meaning unchanged. The same symbol appears in Native American and of course Indian art, also in both directions.
**
Agnostic Pagan**, I’m not sure I really buy into “reclaiming” as a concept. It doesn’t seem to me that it works all that well, unless it’s worked for examples I’m not aware of (I guess that would be the test, wouldn’t it?) For example, “queer” and “witch” are probably the two best known attempts at reclaiming, and while the groups who have reclaimed them may feel powerful using them, I don’t think they’ve lost their negative connotations for the rest of society. As a magickal practitioner myself, I always sort of stammer and hesitate using the word “witch” to describe myself, unless my intent is to shock and provoke.

Can you give me examples of other words or symbols that have been successfully reclaimed? Maybe then I can accept it as theory, and better judge this particular application.

14

I just found out that there’s a Swastika, Ontario complere with an elemtary school !

15

Apparently, I was mistaken in what “reclaiming” as a concept actually means. My husband, who writes scholarly papers on this stuff, tells me that it’s not about erasing negative connotations or replacing a negative meaning of a symbol/word entirely, but of giving a word two separate but related meanings and connotations: one negative, to the larger community, and one positive, for the reclaimers. This is part of building a feeling of community among the reclaimers and excluding outsiders (who retain the negative meaning). If, in fact, a word or symbol was to truly be transformed from negative to positive, then we wouldn’t technically call it reclaiming. It would simply have changed meaning.

My suspicion is that you were using “reclaiming” the way I thought at first: replacing a negative meaning with a positive one, and not in the most technically correct sense of giving a term two meanings, one for each group of people. But if I’m wrong about that, please do correct me.

16

Not always. There’s a firehouse in Norristown with a swastika standing on top of the roof. It was put there as a symbol of Thor’s hammer, good luck, and protection from lightning. It’s identical to a Nazi symbol.

A friend has a bracelet from India. It’s alternating jet and amber beads. The beads are painted with swastikas just like the ones the Nazis used. She’s afraid to wear it in public, despite the brown skin which makes her clearly not a white supremacist.

The crazed (yet likable) mystic ManWoman could give you a long list (with cites) of groups who use swastikas rotating the same way as the Nazis’. He would also give you a happy face button. That button would have a swastika in the middle and the words “Screw Hitler!” on the bottom. After a religious experience, ManWoman has taken it as his mission to reclaim the swastika and has swastika tattoos all over his body.

17

About 1/2 of the population here are Buddhists and there are plenty of buildings with very big swastikas on the side. The Buddhists here have never relinquished the thing. As to the way the arms point, I guess that depends on your perspective (literally). Many people wear a swastika on a necklace and it can be either clockwise or counter-clockwise, depending on how it falls on the chest.

18

i think it needs to be associated with 2 meanings: the nazi and the original (of which there are a multitude.

in tibet, the buddhist swastika has the arms pointing clockwise. the pre-tibetan Bon religion has the swastika in the cou ter clockwise position.

19

Except that it’s not a “weapon”, it’s a symbol, and if we take it away they’ll just find a new one. Frankly, I like the way things are now. If I see someone with a swastika I know he’s my enemy and act accordingly. It makes life simpler that way.

I respect your point of view, but I can’t agree with it. I don’t see the swastika as a symbol of man’s inhumanity towards man, but as a symbol of man’s inhumanity towards me. Asking me to accept it as a good luck charm would be like asking a black man to walk around in a white robe with a pointy hood. It ain’t gonna happen.

20

And ignores the simple fact that a fair number of Buddhists, to include those who tour your country, wear that symbol as a sign of their faith.

I can understand that; however, there are places in the world with large Black populations that have never had the KKK around.

Regarding the white hood, isn’t there some Roman Catholic group that has some annual parade in those?