Seville has one, and I believe there are others as well. The photo on the wiki page has guys in purple robes, but I’ve seen white ones.
Ah, here they are: Semana Santa, Easter Holy Week. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semana_Santa
They don’t wear it openly, and if they do, someone will politely ask them to stop. Our country, our rules. I can’t object to temples in Korea having swastikas, although I admit that seeing them would make me feel uncomfortable.
But we’e not talking about Israel here, nor are we talking about Asia. The subject of this thread is America and the West.
Don’t get all semantic. I was referring to African-Americans, a group with its own unique ethnic and cultural heritage.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I sincerely doubt these parades are held north of 110th St.
I have an idea: as long as we’re reclaiming the swastika, let’s reclaim the skull-and-crossbones as well. There’s no real reason such an innocuous symbol has to represent danger. After all, don’t we all have skulls? Don’t we all have thighbones? There’s nothing to be ashamed about human anatomy. After all, both pirates and Yalies have venerated the symbol for years!
Therefore, I believe that the skull-and-crossbones should be considered, from this day hence, a good luck charm. It should be drawn on various items around the house, especially thingsyou put under the sink. That way, any negative connotation associated with the symbol will be erased, making any substance kept in a skull-and-crossbone marked container perfectly safe.
… what I mean to say is, we need symbols to represent bad things, too.
While I agree with that, I think it’s fair for a group to be frustrated if their innocuous symbol is the one that gets taken over.
You and I can sit down and created a symbol out of the blue to represent something evil. But if we steal the symbol of the United Way (that’s the one with the hands, right?) and then go out and slaughter people under that flag, I think the United Way would be doubly upset.
Then again, after all the pittings of the United Way around here, maybe they deserve it!
Maybe, but what’s done’s done can’t be undone. It may be unfair, but what are you going to do? In the list of injustices associated with this particular subject, I think this lies pretty low.
Yeah, intolerance and bigotry is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free! :rolleyes:
Objecting to the wearing of a swastika in Israel is intolerant and bigoted? :rolleyes:
Why would one object to that? There’s shades of grey in everything. If it’s in the context of someone spouting antisemitic slogans then it’s obvious. If it’s obviously a spiritual Hindi then it’s obviously another situation. There’s a whole spectrum between the two: one shouldn’t just say “hey, when you’re here you shouldn’t wear ANY swastika.” If it’s someone who wears a swastika out of a relatively weak commitment to a cause with it as its symbol, then I’d give them a pass, but consider that perhaps they were being less than completely sensitive. On the other hand, I can see someone wearing one on purpose for sheer provocation rather than out of racism or belief: that would warrant a verbal tongue-lashing. I’m not sure if Alessan had anything else in mind other than the mentioned “politely ask[ing]” (which wouldn’t be warranted in the case of the faithful anyway IMO): but it’s confusing to see “politely ask” in the same post as “our country, our rules”, which leaves itself open to tons of human rights abuses when taken to the extreme.
Fine by me. Mr Yuck is a better symbol anyway.
I’m Hindu. When we hosted religious holiday parties, my mother would paint swastikas on our sidewalk, along with other religious symbols. Did I mention that we lived in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood? Many of our neighbors were Orthodox. My father and I used to tell my mother to stop. But she continued. Not once did any of our neighbors complain or even comment. Apparently they were educated and understood the history of the symbol.
Alessan: “Our country, our rules”? That’s disturbing. Sounds like something a KKK member would say.
This is where I disagree wholeheartedly. It is that sort of fatalistic resignation to the past that I want to fight.
I do not expect, nor want, truth be told, for the swastika to become commonplace in Israel or the Jewish community. And I agree that we need symbols to represent bad things also. The Nazi swastika can serve that purpose without corrupting all its other uses, which have a far greater history and more widespread use than the Nazi symbol ever had.
I have two dogs in this fight. One, I am part Native American, (Lipan and Coahuila), and Buddhist. That the symbols of those heritages were co-opted by an insane megalomaniac is an injustice, and while lower than many others, it is still valid. We fight injustice where we can, not always according to our priorities.
I personally would like to wear a swastika to represent those heritages. I cannot at present, nor expect to any time soon in the West, but I hope to see that attitude change. I am pleasantly surprised that this debate has been as open as it has.
Frankly, if I see a swastika, I have to judge it according to its context. And if they have to find a new symbol, great. Let the burden be on them, not us.
As Asia moves onto the global stage, they should be allowed to ‘fly their flag’, so to speak, just as Christians can wear the cross, or Muslims wear their head scarfs.
I was unfamiliar with the technical definition. I meant it in the normal sense - replacing its negative image with a positive one - not across the board, but for general usage. At the least, let it have the two meanings, but the positive one have greater force. If a skinhead is wearing a swastika pendant, I want to be able ask him if he is Buddhist or Hindu (which I know is a very slim possibility at present).
Unfortunately, I cannot think of any symbol or term that has been ‘reclaimed’ in the way you describe, except for how the swastika was co-opted by the Nazis themselves, reclaiming their “ancestral Aryan heritage”. I’ve have always found it peculiar why the swastika became such a powerful symbol, and I think it lies in its simplicity. It is an almost natural sign, which would account for its nearly universal adoption before WWII.
Oh, America doesn’t have rules?
Can women walk around topless in public? Can you say “nigger” in polite company? What about public urination? Hell, back in the states I couldn’t even drink a beer outdoors without wrapping it in paper like some hobo. Don’t talk to me about “rules.”
Anyway… I doubt anyone would confuse your mother for a Nazi.
First off, I didn’t realize that you were actually in Israel. I apologize for that. Of course there are rules. It’s just that the rules evolve as the population changes. I’m sure that a century and a half ago, “nigger” was used in polite company, however despicable that word is. And perhaps in another century and a half, women will walk around topless.
But I guess my point is that symbols that are important to a culture or religion can’t simply be off-limits because another culture seizes them. I’m pretty sure that if Hitler had used the cross as the official Nazi symbol, you’d still see them on churches all around the world. What if some modern-day neo-nazi group decides to use the six sided star as its symbol? Would you be in favor of Israel promptly removing it from its flag?
No disrespect to your father, but I now have this image of the man “I shall make aliyah. I shall help build a nation where my children and my children’s children shall be safe- and aslo where I can drink a nice lager without a fakockta paper bag like some bum from a silent movie. A paper bag! This I need like a loch en kapp!”
Jackknifed Juggernaut It’s a sliding scale. If I had seen your mother doing that, I would have explained that people who did not know that a Hindu family lived there would misunderstand and possibly vandalize the house. If she continued, I would urge her to blanket the neighborhood in flyers, and hold an open house explaining the heritage of the symbol to the community. A rabbi or Jewish scholar could probably help. I agree it’s silly that my friend, who is the color of Swiss Miss cocoa powder, is afraid to wear her bracelet in public.
But what about my viking friend? He worships the Norse gods. He has blue eyes and blonde hair. He is very definitely not a bigot, and resents the Nazis for stealing the symbols of the Norse faith. But, if I did not know him and saw him wearing a swastika or sig runes the only logical conclusion would be that he was a neoNazi.
Don’t confuse me with someone who supports a majority of these rules (the 3 that aren’t based on health reasons, that is). And what do you mean by “can” – are you or are you not for restricting free speech? If so, that’s appalling.
I have a book I inherited from my father wherein the first page is a large swastika decorated with garlands and flowers and small chirping birds. It’s from the end of the 19 century and about Nordic mythology.
“Reclaiming” the swastika, even if such a process could be controlled, simultaneously robs the millions and millions of victims of Nazism and their surviving family of a way to identify the evil that befall them. For them there would be no reclaiming in this. On the contrary, something will be taken away from them. In Scandinavia there is only a very few number of people who still follow the old Norse Gods. I don’t see why their need to use the swastika for its older meaning should take precedence over the many who need the swastika to describe evil.
Though of course, with time, the instinctive link between the swastika and evil, that many in the west still make, will be watered out – as will Nazism in general, and as have all older catastrophes that has befallen mankind. In a hundred years perhaps. Perhaps longer. My mother when we were small would say Attila the Hun would come after us if we didn’t behave. She says she had it from her mother – that’s 1600 years so far. Also for some reason, the left wing takes a special joy in trying to portray Israel as all kinds of Nazism. Just now, on my way home from picking up my kid I saw a sticker with a “David Star” = “Swastika”. I have often argued such will do more to remove the taboo of Nazism than to denigrate Israel.
I don’t see any geographic limitation to the debate presented in the OP.
Fact is, as Asian nations become more globally prominent, this situation will probably present itself increasingly often. You might consider rethinking your automatic assumption of enmity at least in the appropriate context.
Tibet, India, China, Korea, Japan, Thailand and others. Big populations. Lots and lots of Swastikas. Not Nazis. There’s nothing for them to ‘reclaim’, IMO.
I met a lot of Hindus and Buddhists in South Asia with swastikas tattooed on the Bindi spot (between the eyebrows). How would you deal with that, Allesan? Would you ban them from Israel?
Interesting OP. I think there’s equal responsibility on both sides - the wearer and the observer - to have an open mind and to be willing to educate.
Slightly OT, but gets to the point: I’m Black. I grew up in the UK - my dad is American, and I attended American schools, but we didn’t play much baseball. Certainly, I never saw a baseball game over there! Fast forward to 1995 or so, when I’m attending a Houston Astros game in the Astrodome.
I look at the scoreboard and notice that there are two Ks on it. A little later there’s three Ks… that’s right, KKK. At a ballpark in Texas, where the overwhelming majority of spectators and players are White. I figured there was something up, asked my buddy what was up (his response: “those are for strikeouts, dumbass!”), and went back to enjoying the game (especially when the fourth strikeout was recorded)…
I think given the fact that Buddhists and Indians - and I’m leaning some Native American groups as well - have used the swastika (is that the correct name for their version of the symbol?) for centuries, they have every right to continue to use it. I also understand it connotes great pain for those victimized by the Nazis, and makes a lot of people uncomfortable. In a way, this isn’t a reclamation - when I visited Hong Kong a year ago we visited many Buddhist temples and saw them everywhere.
I mean, I think there’s a clear difference between wearing a charm, or adorning a temple with a symbol versus someone spray painting it on the side of a synagogue. The idea of “reclaiming” negative symbols is something that people try to do here all the time. There are a lot of people in my native Texas - Black, Latino, and White - who see the Confederate flag (stars & bars) as a symbol of their heritage, not of slavery. I don’t personally buy it, but at the same time I’ve heard this rationale from people who would have been seriously at a disadvantage in a Confederate States of America.
For those folks who are White, blond, and blue-eyed, I’d say you are taking on a hell of an educational project if you choose to wear a swastika - even with the most noble intentions. That’s the crushing reality part. I think people would look at someone who appears to be Asian and suspect that the symbol might mean something else. There is an important educational part that needs to be addressed, though, in every classroom when it’s time to talk about WWII - namely, that the swastika has a history wholly unrelated to hate in other cultures. It does not mean, however, that the resident smartass should scrawl them on his/her notebook.
You want the right to walk around Israel with a swastika banner? You think it’s terribly unfair the conclusions people might draw when you wave that banner around?
Sucks to be you. Grow the fuck up and face the fact that the swastika was the symbol of a murderous tyrannical regime, and the targets of that murderous tyrannical regime aren’t likely to forget about it.
Given that the Jews still boo to blot out the name of Haman after more than 2000 years, I don’t think they’re likely to forget the swastika any time soon.